OYP Episode 55: Andrew Sinclair

Andrew Sinclair, International Growth Lead and Director at Publicis Sapient, tells us about his tactics for overcoming age early in his career, harnessing the power of fear and intrigue in sales conversations, and how understanding that there is nothing more important than what the client has to say and the accelerative impact it had on his growth in business development.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the own your potential podcast where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too. I'm Peter Szczerba and today I'm delighted to be sitting down and speaking with Andrew Sinclair - , International Growth Lead and Director at Publicis Sapient.

Andrew excited to have you on the podcast today you know I think there's a ton for us to unpack and dive into but before we get to the meaty stuff, why don't you just kick us off with your career journey.

Andrew Sinclair - Perfect. Thank you very much Peter pleasure to be here and thank you very much for the invitation really looking forward to it. So yes in my name and role so interesting cloud I lead our international growth team going forward into 2022 really excited about that challenge and that opportunity. How I've got there is is an interesting journey so I started with a pretty well-trodden path actually I came out of university with a business degree and I was set to go into banking quite stereotypical output to the the kind of degree and path I'd taken and. Ah, done my Summer internships in the city working with ubs and lazards and others and I was really looking forward to that. But I kind of got out of university and thought hey I haven't actually done anything else I've I've kind of gone through school I've gone through university a lot of friends are taking years off gone abroad I just hadn't so I thought you know what. Can delay that for a year so I will so just by complete coincidence a chat that my dad was working with um in Scandinavia said hey I've met your son does he fancy coming over here for a year and working in bd for my company and I said yeah, why not. So I put the the kind of finance career in hold and I went out to denmark and I worked for a white goods company out there kind of going around selling white goods funly enough completely off piece completely different I thoroughly enjoyed it Scandinavia if you've ever been or never been is just 1 of the most amazing places. The people are there.

Peter Szczerba - It's definitely. It's definitely on the list. Yeah, like.

Andrew Sinclair - Fantastic. The scenery is amazing. Food's amazing thing if you google it they have the highest quality of life in the world and having been out there for some time I can see why? um this fantastic, really great. But I got I got to kind of 6 months into that and some friends of mine came out to to visit me for my birthday.

Peter Szczerba - Right? It's not great, but.

Andrew Sinclair - In copenhagen we had a weekend in copenhagen and then they said to me, you're speaking really slowly and I said well, why's that and what I'd learned is that everyone was very good at speaking english but I had to really slow down and overpronounce it. Everything. That I'd almost become this kind of robotic speaker and I said well that's not going to be good going back to the city in in the near future like with them. So I came back and I was a little bit early so I was about six months early to go back to my internship that was starting september.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, yeah, yeah, so.

Andrew Sinclair - So I actually went to a recruiter in the city and I said hey you know I've got a career path like coming up but I'm I'm interested in doing something in the interim. Maybe I could join a recruitment firm. He said? Yeah well you could join here. Or. In fact, I had chapin this morning who's starting up or looking to develop his business development capability in an I T company I said ah no, no and that's not for me like I T is not for me I don't mind it I get it. You know I've I've got a. Ah, degree with computers in business but it's not recruitment financial services that's more my bag he said well look. Why didn't you go an interview. Why don't you go and speak to this guy just even if it's interview practice. Um, you know it's a good exercise to do I said I right? Fine. So I put my pinstried suit on my tie.

Peter Szczerba - Right.

Andrew Sinclair - Matching comfort. All the old regalia and I went to this office in Old street just in North of bank I just loved it. The guy was great I met the whole team I said look it t is an enabler business is what we're trying to drive it is you know it's not secondary. But what we want is someone that can speak to the financial services industry and actually more specifically what we're looking for is someone to leverage relationships we already have in financial services and build a commodities business.

So I said well yeah, okay I kind of get that I understand you know the trading sides you know how financial instruments work, etc, etc. Okay I'll just join and so I joined very quickly and I thought I'll do this for six months and I'll go back to the Summer internship I'm now 10 years later and I'm still fa to street.

And there's a bit in between but that's how I started in this. Um, so my my job when I joined was essentially 1 kind of old school phone 1 free linkedin account and I was told to fill my boots and get meetings and get conversations.

And it was very much we were in a glass office in the corner of a much larger building and it was a little bit if you've ever seen the old school film with Alec Baldwin You know, always be closing. It was very. It was very much that it was smile and dial. Get the conversations convinced.

People on the reception to get you through to the heads of trading and what I found really quickly was that nobody else seemed to be doing this and nobody else seemed to be brokering into like quite senior people I was very surprised at the agent stage I was. Cios were taking my calls heads of trading desks were like hey you know technology and you know how to enable my business better through Digital. Absolutely come and have a conversation with me so within kind of 6 months we were meeting with very senior folk and very large financial institutions to which then turned into revenue. Which is probably also why I didn't leave because there was starting to be a bit of a snowball effect and and I just thoroughly enjoyed that I then moved to a smaller organization. Actually there was only 4 people when I left the first company I worked for.

And they basically had a really sound foundation as a business I met them through partnership and the managing director said hey look ah you seem to have built up a great network. You seem to be telling the great story. Can you join us and help build a business and so I joined them just down the road actually in in London wall. Center of london city and it was a fantastic 3 years you know I got so much out of that learning how to build from basically a very very small business and make it to a medium sized business now you literally are what you reap is what you sow in a business like that.

And it was a fantastic experience thoroughly enjoyed. It worked really hard for a number of years traveling around I think I was in an airport nearly four times a week traveling to different european cities for sometimes just 1 meeting what pretty much always 1 meeting because I was always in the area for that 1 meeting as I spoke.

As I told them anyway um to get the meeting in the first place so yes I worked for that organization for about 3 years um and it was it was great then the price of oil dropped the clients were looking at things differently and I kept running into sapien.

Sapient was the big competitor that I kept running into um and then there was a mutual connection I was working with the software company at the time trading risk management software company got very close to 1 of the sales guys there we were working across multiple deals and he got approached by who. Became my boss atl meta and guy peter newton at the time and they asked him if he'd like to come in for an interview for business Development. He actually said absolutely not for me I'm afraid I like the software space, product, space, etc. But I do know a guy that would probably be better suited. Which was fortunately myself so I wasn't actually looking at the time but um or looking to move on but I met at all or met Peter I met dick sit patel and a number of other folk I just I just was compelled from the Offset. So. The rest is history as they say and I joined sapient. It's nearly 7 seven and a bit years ago now to join and basically do the same exercise from the very day I joined the first organization to when I joined sapient I think actually it may have even been the same suit or certainly the same style of still when I joined 7 years later ah, and I did and you know it was the same principle with a much bigger machine behind me and then we were required by publicist day of joining actually um and it just it became an even more compelling story and a more compelling machine.

To back up the same thing that I was doing which was just talking to business stakeholders in commodities when I joined sapient say hey look do you want to drive business value cost optimization or agility through digital technology and it was the same way of doing it and that's what I've been doing ever since.

Peter Szczerba - I mean I really want to just immediately go back in and jump into kind of the initial kind of fork that you were facing right coming out of school you studied in 1 thing very clear career path probably going to be pretty successful if you progress down that path.

Then you have this experience in Denmark shifts your perspective a little bit and suddenly you have you know you're just looking to fill the gap 6 months I just need to fill 6 months and so like even the moment that you describe where the the recruiter was like well no, just take a shot on the it thing right? take the interview even if it's just for practice right.

And having the open mind to do that like that's a pretty pivotal decision right? that might be chalked up is like okay, yeah, it's an hour of my time. What's the difference. But then that you know has a cascading effect on basically the next 10 years of your career right? and probably the next 30 or forty after this so you know as you were. You know having this experience those first six months in that sales role and then you were kind of butting up against you know the time when you would have gone on gone back and done that internship. How are you managing that decision around. You know you know what I'm going to stay in this There's a lot here for me right when and when when you looked at the opportunity cost. Like what was the decisioning framework there and then like did you just tell yourself I'm going to reevaluate this in 6 more months or a year and see if I go back to it from there describe that thinking process.

Andrew Sinclair - Yeah, no, absolutely. So I think I think for me, it was that I was so surprised having come from a background where everything was quite set up. Everything was quite obvious. You know you did certain academic subjects which then got you to a certain university to study a certain business degree. And then you went to a certain job and and basically it was competitive in nature that everyone was trying for the same types of institutions or organizations but just with different pay packets different levels of Seniority. What I found very quickly is I thought that job for the 6 months I took would have the same setup just in a different industry. But I almost immediately found what the there was very few people doing the same activity. There were very few people. Ah who had the opportunity to be entrepreneurial in a huge industry and probably 1 of the biggest markap spaces being it in information Technology. So.

Answer your questions I I instantly felt naturally I enjoyed the entrepreneurial ability to have a huge industry to go and make my way in where there weren't hundreds upon thousands of directly equivalent people doing the same thing as me or that I could see maybe they are and there probably are. Ah, but in my immediate purview. It was a grad scheme with 1 hundred people or it was this role with just 1 or 2 and as I said you know once I've got started once I was starting to have those meetings traveling the world talking to sea level executives as a twenty something year old. Straight out of university type individual I loved it. I thrived off it, you know nothing was nothing was cookie cutter yet. Every conversation was thinking on your feet crafting the response acting with intelligence and integrity on every conversation. There was no.

You know I've invited 5 parties in you're going to be 1 of five to pitch and there's a cast of 30 that go into each 1 of those it was very dynamic very individual and really rewarding quite honestly.

Peter Szczerba - Well for sure I Can only imagine right in a number of different ways or across a number of different dimensions I'm sure felt rewarding so you know you're in your early twenty s you're very early in your career for whatever reason right? The phone and the Linkedin that account that you had was translating to conversations with Cxo etc and. Senior leaders. How do you manage the the perception of you know, a relatively young early career stage person stepping into these rooms and still being taken seriously cause that's something that people struggle with you know in far less high stakes situations than that, right? even just in simple delivery roles right? when they try and offer perspective to. Probably much less senior clients that that issue Exists. So how did you manage that because I know you know I've had a ton of experiences like that in my own career and I've had my own tactics but I'm curious to hear kind of what your approach was.

Andrew Sinclair - Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting 1 I think you know even 10 years ago when I started this the way we interact now is different to them. There's no video course there was nobody to see on the other end of a call. It was.

A proper phone as I would call it you know wiling a number it went through the wires and it went to someone else so they couldn't see who was on the other end of that call Physically they didn't know my age. My stage there was all they were convinced by was what I was saying and how I was saying it and that was the only hook. So.

And I'll give you a real example of of how that transpired into quite a funny event for me was it was in my second company we went to a meeting that I'd been working on for for about 18 months to get in front of this 1 respective global oil company and. 8 of us from my company went to this meeting that I'd finally got there was the cio down and they had about nine people. We were about 8 people and we were doing introductions but the the client actually decided to do the introductions and he kind of pointed to my superior or my managing director and said.

Nice to meet you and then went to the next person along the line and he basically went in age order asking. So you must be Andrew So so Andrew nice to meet you and every 1 of them went. No no, No no and then he went. Oh you're Andrew and he said oh right? and the looking his face Of. You've got me into this room and I thought you were here to carry. The bags was quite a defining and quite quite ah ah a rewarding moment for me. But I think you know how have I managed it. You know I didn't have a photo on Linkedin until I was a bit older.

I didn't put a 3 on the Inton until I was a bit more experienced. You know these these small things that people can judge you on weren't helpful until you're a certain sage and a certain h quite frankly what I just focused on and you know worked really hard on is I've got.

Ten seconds to get this person to talk to me. Everyone innately hates to be sold too cold. It's a human right? People were getting the phone calls coming through from their reception or wherever and they don't want to talk to me like they nine times out of 10 a Hundred times out of 10

People don't actually wish they'd picked up that phone so I had a very short space of time to try and make them want to continue the conversation with me and don't get me wrong. It was not a fun activity for quite a long time. You know I would question anyone that says they enjoy.

Hardcore cold calling. It is ah is a pretty harsh environment a harsh activity but through trial and error and techniques and tricks quite frankly, you can get there to get more senior people to talk to you and funly enough I Actually think back to your original question. The more senior individuals tend to have the more interest in the more time. Yeah I think you know there's 2 traits that I really focus on with the approach and it's something I Always tell my team is fear and intrigue.

Say that people like you scare people into talking to you like well that's very hard on the phone. That's that's not what I'm saying what? what? I'm actually saying is people are fearful of being left behind particularly in the digital age things are moving at such a pace that if you're in your own company for a long period of time if you're not talking to people outside of your own Organization. You become fearful that you're going to be left Behind. You won't survive and then the other 1 is people are typically intrigued to know what their peers are doing so.

They kind of want to know if you're Burger king what r kfc and Mcdonald's doing if you're bp you want to know what shell and chevron are doing so those 2 things in my opening statement were always the things that I would lead with you know, do not want to know where you stand compared to your industry peers. You know I can talk you through some of the principles of what we've been doing with.

Mcdonald's and burgaking etc and those 2 instant things and people go oh okay, well that that could be worth thirty minutes of my time because that's something that I can't gain talking to my colleagues or internal network within my organization. But I can get from you as a consultancy business working with a multitude of others and that's that's the approach I took.

Peter Szczerba - No I mean I I love that this is such a simple kind of approach this idea of even coining it as fear and intrigue and channeling that and like you said like the first ten to fifteen seconds of a call that's where you need to catch them and. I'm sure there's endless numbers of tactics and strategies that go to getting even to the point of being able to you know use this strategy right? This idea of fear and intrigue on the kind of the target audience to whoever the cxl or senior leader is but I think it's so elegant and I think it makes total sense and now that you articulate it that way. I mean I've seen it happen over and over again even in my own experience with clients and you know a lot of what you said around like not putting a picture on linkedin that's very interesting right? because it's 1 of these things where it's a balance of being a point of pride that you're be able to be in these rooms or driving this sort of impact at these early career stages. But ah. Flaunting that. Let's say or marketing that can be detrimental to getting in the room in the first place so so swallowing the ego and the pride around wanting to say hey look what I've achieved at this career stage in order to be able to achieve more is a really interesting balance and kind of line the walk and in my own experience right? early on.

Like the senior associate level getting involved in pitches and bd I just remember my my the most nervous moment across any call, especially if it was It's like the the team slide because you have the faces on the slide. Everybody else is svp of that gdp of this right? and you know and a lead or global lead of this. And then I would always put the most ambiguous term using whatever picture I had that had like the nicest looking facial hair to age me a couple years and and basically just I would always put like data lead. Let's say or like data strategy lead or something along those lines where it's like. Just gloss over it and let's just talk about like the type of work I've done right? and and that was always the focus and that's that's not dissimilar right? because you just you know it's ah it's a hard fact you lose credibility the moment they realize like how junior you might be if you're speaking to somebody senior and that's just a natural response. So those tactics I find very interesting.

Andrew Sinclair - I think on that I think just as a funny thing right? I think the most used phrase I always had in those meetings was that's gonna be a hard act to follow I pretty much said that to every meeting I went to you know as you say all the svps the 30 year career veterans and then you go last and you go four hats can be a hard act to follow.

But but and there was 1 chap in particular and I hope he doesn't mind me saying this but it was kind of a running joke I used to on a first twin sapient I did a lot of pitches with dickip patel and yeah, he's just the guru he's he's been around sapien for a long time. He's been in a lot of pitches and he's got ah such an illustrious career history. But god I hated going to new pictures with him because if he went first in the introduction. It was a really hard act to follow. So I always tried to get in there first and he knew I was trying to get in there first so became a running joke with it who is it.

Peter Szczerba - Um, yeah, yeah, that's funny. But I mean it's a real consideration or it's the the order of intro and stuff like that I think you know it sounds like a small thing but it really isn't and and it's stuff that like. I Think a lot of individuals early career stages right? and I think like once you get to that associate director director stage right? I think that's where like objective credibility starts to be assigned just based on title alone right? But even then when you're still nestled amongst like your your svps your vps etc like there that contrast.

That exists It's still it still doesn't do you any favors right? in terms of being saddled amongst those people on the call.

Andrew Sinclair - Yeah, yes, that's completely true and I think the other thing I see in that though is there's been an evolution of younger generations or millennials if you will becoming more. Kind of embraced given the type of industry we're in so certainly when I started. You know it's a bit like myself I went to quite traditional English school. There was ah a set hierarchy based on age with your pre-fich your head to school and that was kind of a set format and I think in banking and commercial services. There was still that.

The longer you've been in it the more experienced you are the more respect you will gain but the whole business ecosystem has been changed on its head with digital and technology and as a result. You know age almost goes out the window because we're setting a new industrial revolution mark four and as ah, rco says you know the the revolution is here and it's a digital revolution and as a result nobody's been through this before. Nobody's actually been through a digital business transformation. Ah kind of revolution or evolution.

Therefore ages become less important I think it's your perspective your point of view and your conviction in what you say and the appreciation of what you're talking about has become more respected because we're all going through something new. Um, and it's less about I've been here for 50 years

Ah, been in 4 bit. You know it's it's more a case of I understand how to make an impact on your business. You know to the client.

Peter Szczerba - But see so as you as you describe that right? And basically what I'm thinking from that is that that means that there are more opportunities for people earlier in their career to to have a meaningful role and and then subsequently impact in these types of in these types of situations. If Their perspective is strong if their delivery is strong etc et cetera. But then you know I think that building on something else that you kind of talked about this idea that you know you had to really refine the pitch really refine your approach and tons of failure right? like I imagine that cold calling.

Had a really high failure rate where it gave you a ton a ton of reps to get your pitch perfect to get your speaking approach perfect and so to your point right? It's about how you're able to communicate your conviction your expertise but also the ability to do that Really well often comes with time in the game.

So I guess my question to you is for yourself right? other than just enormous volume of reps early in your career like what tactics or what approaches did you have to really refining the speaking points that way your conviction your expertise your knowledge. None of that was lost in the mix as you are kind of getting the opportunity to present these situations.

Andrew Sinclair - That's a really good question actually and and it's a complex question because the medium of contact has changed so drastically and recent years you know cold calls is almost gone actually well, it's gone over covid because nobody's in an office and ah and just so you know the methodology of a cold call was.

Let's say ah, an investment bank icbc inter continental bank of china who who was cold called to to client and it was called the switchboard asked for that individual through the switchboard to be spoken to they would then get. Ah, called through from the receptionist to say this person want speak to you so you've got so many barriers to entry already that you know that as a methodology was refined and then that went out the window the moment we went into working from home. There was no switchboard to call. So then you went on to emails then you went on to conferences and so Forth. So.

You know we've changed very drastically the the way we approach but the principle in answer to your question is still the same and that principle for me through trial and area is less is more and don't try and sell everything at once and don't try and sell at all quite frankly. Like as I said before nobody likes to be sold to nobody likes to feel like they're being asked to make a decision. Commercially what you're actually doing as a consulting business is trying to educate trying to support trying to give the opportunity to understand something or an understanding of different part of Expertise point of View. So just.

Always give never take to That's the first thing so fear and entry would you like to talk to my respective business lead, etc, etc so always offer something never ask to take something is the first thing and then yeah, go back to lessers more like particularly in consulting businesses. There are so many smart people. Like I've met some of the smartest people probably on this earth having gone through sapients in pictures over the last seven years. Some particular people just really stand out to me and what they're great at is giving the client so much. Intellect and expertise and that is invaluable but sometimes we rush to give that we just we just want to get it all there to to give that cell and what I always try and do is that in those initial stages. Let's just rain it back like let's let's find out why.

They want to talk to a consultancy if at all my my typical rule of thumb is they'll there'll always be something that we can add value to that. They're not already looking at so there's never not an avenue to explore it just is. We need to listen to the kind. Before we start talking back about what our point of view is because otherwise we go down a rabbit hole. That's either not of interest or isn't relevant and I think it goes back to what the original founder of sapien said whereas you know there is nothing more important than what the client has to say was 1 of his kind of.

Which call them main statements mission statements you know, solving complex technology so solving complex business problems with technology and there is nothing more important than what the client has to say and that second 1 for me and my team and the way I go about doing business is the most important thing like we should only talk five percent of the conversation with the client.

Even in the pitch stages in the early stages because they've got a big mandate. They've got a big landscape that they're trying to work through how can we help with that We won't know what that looks like until they tell us.

Peter Szczerba - Right? right? and I think that's a really important thing to walk away from right, especially in any client facing business and I think it scales up and down right? Even if you know let's put it more simplistic like if you're in customer service right? The idea that you're still looking to solve the customer who in that case is your clients. Problem right? or or enable them to make a decision or a purchase or whatever the case is and scale it all the way up to fortune 1 hundred consulting or managed services or whatever the case is it's the same deal right? like you're structuring your offering around what it is that they need. You won't know what it is that they need unless you listen. So that's a really.

I think a really important takeaway over and above these ideas of less is more raining it back and kind of easing the way in. Um I think all of those things are are really important to walk away from and I think particularly you said that obviously as the mediums of communication have changed I'm curious then to hear about you know. Cold calling doesn't exist anymore in the way that it used to because of the way that physical working spaces have changed. What's the tactic now what has it been over the last 2 years I know that you've carved a very unique path to to build your team in an organization. The size of of of Puis sapi you know 20000 people plus right like.

So I'd love to hear a little bit about how your approach this important aspect of the kind of origination of opportunities has evolved and then also like your way of navigating an organization to stand up your strategy your team. Love to hear about that because it's pretty entrepreneurial thing that you've kind of achieved.

Andrew Sinclair - Yeah, thank you I think in terms of how we've adjuststed the approach. You know we've used out the medium so email email slightly harder. You know you can overcomplicate an email because you can reread it you can review it in a cold call. You can only do once. So. You know we've we've refined that Marketing. So I think marketing has become more instrumental. You know Sapine has built a substantial and very successful marketing capability and how we interweave and work together in partnership has become ever more important and instrumental and that's been really.

Good actually in recent recent years you know it was easy to be independent marketing supported with material with publications but actually now it's how do we get the data together to make a joint go to Markete and join approach to the cold market and that's works really well.

Um, so I'd say you know in terms of the approach. It's just that we've refined it. We've worked with Partners. We've got more intel and we make a more sort of concise approach either through kind of email or marketing activities. But also you know the conference and the the kind of. Digital venue institutions have been fantastic over the last couple of years like we've been going for a lot of digital events where actually we probably met more people given the format than we would in a physical space. You know you can set up 5 minute conversations with people of interest and they can do the same with you and.

Everyone's around the globe dialing into the same digital event. The the coffee breaks are gone the walking around the big halls are gone like actually we're meetinging 10 people in an hour whereas. We probably met 1 in 2 hours when we were physically present. Um.

You know I think I'm looking forward to going back to the physical interactions I think that's really important to build up rapport and trust but from a meeting and building up a network perspective a lot of the digital conferences have been really really compelling and really excellent. Actually miller.

Peter Szczerba - That's very interesting. That's very interesting. You know I think that it's it's it's always cool to hear where kind of the disruptive and transformative digital experiences have shifted how we how we do things and so for example, you know that's a huge impact 1 conversation in 2 hours versus.

10 conversations in 1 right? That is a big difference in terms of like scaling your ability to source opportunities right? like so that that is particularly excited to hear and you know like yourself I'm also excited to get back to some of the bigger conferences and I feel like there's an immersion effect where you just.

You know drink the kool-aid for a couple of days and it kind of accelerates your learning and and retention of everything you're you're there for as well as like the networking aspect I think everyone just gets in a mode. But I think adapting to the types of digital versions of that that you're describing is going to be super critical. From a networking perspective maybe in any capacity. Not even just in a sales perspective. But if you're going there from a learning perspective as well. Like that is a huge shift in how you need to navigate those types of events now.

Andrew Sinclair - Yeah, definitely and you know everyone was going through the same thing. It was all trial and error. But I think they've been so well refined the platforms actually enable that are fantastic and you know it goes back to. It's almost like cold calling with video calls Now you know we're dropping into conferences speaking to people like you and I are now.

Ah, and you know my team are like out there more than they would probably in like the physical world and be able to refine the story trial and error through pitching our services Pitching. You know what we do and how we do it in a more rigorous format which is the digital conference space. So from that perspective. It's been great.

Peter Szczerba - Right? And so I want to shift a little bit to to kind of you know over the the 7 years that you've been at sapient right? There's obviously been a lot of shifts in our approach to kind of sales and growth and now we're at ah at an inflection point where we expect to see.

You know, explosive growth in this space and kind of scaling of our growth organization with the introduction of arthur phillip who we've talked to on the podcast as our new chief growth officer globally so. There's a lot of exciting stuff happening now but leading up until this point you you know with a. Very lean team that that you built up and created the business case for kind of challenged the challenge the status quo in terms of how business development was being done and and you know through demonstration of impact and and results were able to kind of build a team. Do things the way that you had been doing them right in other organizations with lots of success in an organization where it wasn't really being done that way and it's translated to you know, big business and big Opportunities. So talk a little bit about like how you were able to Navigate. You know whether it's the c-suite or or general like senior leadership where you're challenging the way that they're working right.

And trying to disrupt and and and prove out that like there's this way that I've done this before I think it scales to this size I think we can have a lot of success doing this.

Andrew Sinclair - Yeah, that's a really good question. Actually I think um, you know completely fortuitously. There was a couple of factors that made that a little bit easier but also made it. You know a more obvious path and what I mean by that is as I said earlier. Yeah, we were required by puvisist the day I joined sapiot.

And what that meant was that our proposition our what we sold changed with that and we've evolved that ever since. So 1 of the big things I've been part of is the journey of what Sapien nitro and Sapien consulting were what we sold how we did it to what we are now as publicist sapien. And setting a more complex a more compelling proposition but it is more complex. It is larger. It. It takes more building of trust and relationship to get to a cell but it's it's been a path to that that is now you know the proposition we go to market with so. Why do I say that I say that because. You know I believe we were doing a sales activity when I joined sapien so we had a very ah, not productized, but we had a pretty good view sapien nitro did this sapien consulting did that clients our brand stock was very high. We were known in the market wouldn't say we were order-taking but we were certainly.

Getting a lot of inbounds that we then competed for the win that was that was sapien of old when we came into the digital business transformation Space. We wanted fewer clients doing more work with them and more impactful Work. We had to educate the market educate our clients educate ourselves On.. What do we do And how do we do? it. So The only way to do that is to put yourself in a pretty uncomfortable position Most of the time. Ah which I'm ah quite used to given you know as I said my early career just putting myself into it conversations without knowing much but we had to put ourselves in conversations that.

We just listened to the multitude of different clients out there about what is the common problem. What is the common capability gap what is the common business drivers and I think the reason we've been successful as a team is that we've got the license to go and do that like we can just go. We're not selling anything We're not proposition owners we're not um you know we're not ah smes in our respective fields as such from a domain perspective what we were doing is listening to the market educating the market and what we're formulating to help with that and what that yielded was a lot of trusted relationships with clients. But also with internal senior leadership. We were. We were kind of an internal lens to hey I've talked to 10 clients this week and they're all saying something similar. You know we need to feed that into our proposition and a lot of our senior leadership appreciated that.

And I started to see the value of business development. Not just as a sales engine. But as an intel gathering Market research engine as well to help define the strategy going forward because as I said over that 7 years we've got to the point where we are now with a very compelling and well-articulated dbt proposal. Proposition rather but it's taken a little while to get there because we needed to understand our market and we and needed to understand how to sew our internal capabilities together to meet that demand and that's something that you know isn't independently with me of course. But. We play a role in helping to define that.

Peter Szczerba - And I think that's really interesting right? being able to consciously identify that there's an opportunity for your function and particularly the team that you own to play a different role and or I guess not a different role but an additive role to like the traditional sales engine aspect of bd and growth right? Then like you said. Generate that intel you have a unique ability to be untethered from like delivery to an account to go off and speak to 10 clients. Let's say in a week and and find the common challenge the common goal the common vision which I think is I think that's really I think that's really interesting right? and.

And being able to to identify that then do it and show the value that it could bring to your point buys you a lot of Goodwill with with a leadership organization to then maybe invest in or help you grow a team that's going to help you scale that activity right.

And and you know and now we're at ah in a position where we're going to scale that even more and then I think that though as you grew that little team into something bigger and and you know scaled that activity though what was like a critical success factor because I know that you know even as you've described today this idea of like that first ten seconds in a conversation right? is really important.

So you know this idea of like the elevator pitch like what is the differentiator differentiator and being able to do that successfully and making sure your team is doing it the way that you would do it or you know in a way that's going to drive success like how did you enable that.

Andrew Sinclair - Yeah, so I think um, the simple answers to that is just to build trust like I think 1 ah 1 of the key success factors is we were set it. We've started so work where it hasn't gone to rfp where it's been a conversation where it's a mutually. Ah. To find package of work that we've then gone into the client and said let's go and on this journey together so that for me is a success factor that is the kind of nirvana state and we've had that over recent years because what we've changed our mindset from doing is selling stuff to partnering. To do work together. But that's a big shift like there has been no 1 individual cell in my 7 years or even 10 years that looks the same as the 1 before and you know what the way our team formulates around that is it's not an instantaneous thing. It is not a binary activity.

It is being able to listen and what I've seen even more so is be able to be the spokesperson for that client within our business because what I'd learned to find there is a war on talent. There is a lot of capability lacking in the marketplace as a whole because we're going through such a dynamic shift as a global enterprise.

A global ecosystem that what I found recently is clients are saying to me. Can you help me get the best that of sapient can you help me get the right package of work defined I'll tell you my business problem. But Andrew I'm going to trust you to figure out the capability mix the program to come back to me and say look Andrew look.

You know this is this is what we're going to do to be successful and you know I think pretty much all of the recent wins we've had have been a leap of faith from the client like there is no kind of ones in zero tick box to say whether we're right or we're wrong. It's that we've. Pulled together the right capability the right experts with the right deliverables to meet a pretty loose ambiguous objectiveive most often. Um, because as I said before nobody knows the path to higher revenue lower costs more agile business at scale we have to go on a journey. And you know therefore the success factor or the criteria is a client wanting to take that leap of faith with you individually and with the organization that you represent and so you know how do I kind of focus the team. It's build the rapport get the right people to talk to the right people. So the expertise and rapport is built individually and then make sure we act with integrity to give a transparent and open piece of work that we can start that partnership on that is all we try to do.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah I Think what I am pulling away from that Also is I think is what I find particularly interesting is that as you know there's a level of efficiency that you can probably achieve in being able to speak to a lot of these capabilities and start to craft the proper mix. As the point of contact and kind of tip of the spear in those conversations with clients but traditionally especially in an area as complex cells like dbt at an Enterprise scale right? That's that's very difficult for 1 individual to have a grasp on holistically especially to go very deep. But I think there's a level of depth where.

You know you can kind of fake it till you make it probably and be able to steer the conversation far enough that then it makes sense to bring in those other players is that a common I Guess Behavior in the sales space or is that something that because I know that that's something that you've achieved in your ability to lead the conversation pretty deep before you need to bring in the other parties for. For that capability Mix. You know is that I Do you think that's a differentiator in kind of the Bd space that you found has driven some of your success.

Andrew Sinclair - Yeah, definitely and and that's a great observation I think um I go back to what I said originally about staying in the sector in my first company it was that they said you don't need to understand it. You don't need to understand the capabilities that enable you need to have an appreciation of them. But what you really need to do is talk at a level you know at the business side. And there's 3 macro things that any company typically wants to achieve a ceo wakes up worries about their people worries about the top line worries about the bottom line and what's coming next. So if you can talk to people about pretty much with a level of common sense those things in any industry.

You're going to be Compelling. You're going to build rapport. You never have to be the expert I will never pretend or say I'm an expert in any given capability field because I'm not but I have an appreciation at surface level of the different capabilities that make up higher revenues more digitally enabled business. Agile business. You know so on and so forth and to be honest, most of the senior level execs Only want to talk at that level. They have respective individuals who are specialists in their field to help enable their top line conversation. Ah.

You know whether it's their cio of technology their Chief data Officer etc. Yeah I won't be leading those conversations. But I think we can talk to those individuals about what data is done for a business. What Cx and I could do from a vision perspective and I Think. Just listening to the client using common sense and asking articulate and well thought through questions enables us to get an idea of how we can help that business and that's the approach we Take. We never try and push something that isn't. Being asked from us to Show. Oh.

Peter Szczerba - Right? I Yeah I think that makes so much sense and you know I think a lot of what I gather from this conversation just in terms of how you kind of articulate some of the grind that you've gone to to develop the skills you have to be able to now wield them with a level of you know expertise and Confidence. You know I think it ties a lot to ambition and I think the sales space in general takes a pretty ambitious person to go through you know years of cold calling right? and the the you know repetitive you know so let's call it like crushing failure of like nine out of 10 calls being a quick hangup right? like that's tough.

Right? And I think that builds a thick skin but ambition keeps driving you forward through all that developing. So I guess I'm curious. You know it's obvious that that ambition exists within you so what are you? What are you working towards long term right? What is the end state for andrew and kind of. In the sales space or more broadly right? Like what is what is success when you go back, you know ten fifteen 20 years from now.

Andrew Sinclair - Well, that's a good question. Ah so I think for me individually like I just have an innate entrepreneur on competitive kind of trait in me, you know I think that's built over this career I didn't probably think I did. But once I started in that first company I just I just enjoyed carving my own path. You know there's comfort and carving it in companies that are established and will recognize but I love having an individual role where I can just carve that that path myself I think for me, you know what does successful with like longer term.

Is to have carved a path that others then follow suit and do something similar or follow follow that path. Um, you know I think that's really exciting and would make myself very proud to kind of build something that others others want to replicate. Um, you know. Me Personally, you know I'm a keen Sailor. So I'd love to have a yacht by forty and not have to worry about any of that and just retire and you know if we're fully digital. Why then I could just do it from a boat appreciate. That's that's a pipe dream but you know I think you know for me, it's all about people.

Whether it's my son or or my soon- to be daughter looking up and saying like you know I Want to follow Dad's footsteps or giving them the kind of platform to do whatever they want but you know 2 to follow suit or the people that I bring along as well or hire or mentor or coach or report to. You know I Just love ah, kind of being able to set an example for me is is obvious thing.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah I think what I love hearing about that is as you kind of articulate it to me I just hear that you're looking to blaze the trail right? Not follow somebody else's and that in itself is ah you know demon demonstrative of aspiration and ambition and I think that you know 1 of the key takeaways.

This conversation that is transferable I think and be from Bd out into any other kind of industry or or professional spaces I think having that ambition and channeling it. You know I think it's important because I think it has an accelerative effect on the how hard somebody is willing to work right? And how they. How they navigate their career and and the risk that they take and stuff like that and I think it's really important and I think it's a really great sentiment to leave off on. Ah Andrew I think this has been a great conversation ton of stuff for people to walk away with both. You know, big picture strategic items as well as some really valuable tactics in terms of. You know other high performers early in their career who are like how do I get taken Seriously I think there's a ton here for them to to learn and and it's been a great Conversation. So I look forward to having another 1 down the line when our growth organization explodes and you're sitting on top of it. So looking forward to that.

Andrew Sinclair - Um, Peter absolute pleasure. Thank you very much I hope it has been beneficial to to some that listen and yeah I look forward to that next conversation for sure.