OYP Episode 19: Marcus Collins

Marcus Collins, Chief Consumer Connections Officer at Doner, recounts his inspiring career journey and explains how never losing sight of his passion was key to his success.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the Own Your Poential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control their career growth and lessons on how you can do on Peter Szczerba. And today I'm talking to Marcus Collins, the Chief Consumer Connections officer at donor, as well as the lecturer of marketing at the University of Michigan, Ross School of Business. Marcus, thank you for joining us on the podcast today really excited to sit down and have this conversation. Let's just jump right in. Can you tell us a little bit about your career journey so far?

Marcus Collins - Man, I'm stoked to be here and happy to oblige. So my name is Marcus Collins, I am a product of Detroit, Michigan, I always start that way. Because I feel like I am who I am because of the city right very much influenced who I am and how I see the world. I went to University of Michigan studied material science engineering, because I thought that the polymers were a cool thing. And I don't know if I really describe polymers as such today, but at least at that time, that polymers are pretty cool. After my first year of school, I realized that wasn't the best, the best fit for me. I went home to my parents, I think I don't want to I don't think I want to be an engineer. My mom says, well, we're going to take classes in your major like want to take classes in your major you like it better those first classes are just weed out classes. So went back to my second year courses really didn't want to do engineering, ended up taking some music theory courses to offset my horrible GPA, went back home and said Mom and Dad, I know what I want to be I want to be, I want to be a songwriter. And here we're like, oh, no, you don't, that is not true, buddy. And I ended up going back to school that after the summer to finish out my degree in engineering. Afterwards, I went to the music industry, worked at Universal Music Group as an intern, then went and did a startup where I was developing artists, recording artists trying to pitch artists for for a deal, essentially getting getting songs placed. Now I started my career for a while we launched a record label with another guy named Mike Muse. And we had a good thing going for a moment in time, but things start to unwind. So I ended up going to business school to get my MBA to figure out this disruption that was happening in music and business more broadly. After after business school and went to Apple did partner marketing and iTunes, manage the relationship with Nike sports music. And during this time, I ended up crossing paths with Matthew Knowles, who has a daughter named Beyonce. And he says, Wait a minute. I mean, you were an engineer, you started a music company. You have your MBA, you work at Apple and iTunes and you'reblack, like Dude, who are you your unicorn, you don't exist? like, Nah, I exist, man. I'm a real thing. real person. He says, You should run digital strategy for Beyonce. And I'm like Oh, you're absolutely right. And that's why I did move to New York. Ryan do Friday for Beyonce, which was as awesome as it seems. And this is in the I am Sasha Fierce days, right. So this is like, an awesome time to be in the Beyonce business as if there's ever a bad time to be in a Beyonce business. But in particular, just like it was like watching the beehive, I saw the beehive, like form. It just it was unbelievable. And at that time, I remember sort of having this sort of existential crisis where I'm experiencing all this success with arguably the biggest artist on the planet. And I'm looking in the mirror, asking myself how much of this is because of me? I'm like, be I think I'll be successful regardless. And from there or not, like how much of this success has anything to do with my talent? How good am I and I thought that was that was a good, a good litmus test for me to kind of see what else is out there. Not only that, but like I was, you know, this is 2009, 2010. The world of social media as a vehicle for brands to communicate with consumers were starting to really open up. And I had colleagues, friends, peers, who were working at Facebook and Twitter and Foursquare at the time, which is a thing. And it worked with brands and I just felt like they were so far ahead of me, when it came to navigating this space that I knew that I if I were going to to be at parity with them, I needed a new environment to to to hone these skills to foster these skills. So I went to advertising went to an agency called the Fuel Pureplay social agency, where everything day in day out all we did was social and digital. And during those times, I ended up meeting Steve Stoute, who was a record industry guy that started an agency with Jimmy Ioveen and Jay Z, and I go to I meet Stoute and Stoute opens me up to this idea of culture, right culture, not something that we just invest ourselves in and that we, that we, that guides what we do as human beings on this planet. But culture is a vehicle for brands to drive consumption ever was really, really powerful. So it gave me an opportunity to come to Translation, this agency to build a social practice, and basically build an agency inside of an agency. And it was an amazing time, it was fascinating for me, that I felt like I grew exponentially as a marketer, not only because of my experience there, and these, like brilliant people I was working with, but I also had this existential crisis during this time. And, and my wife and I were having dinner with a friend of hers friend of ours, and she worked in social work. And she would often say, you know, in social, we do this social, we do that social, we do this social, we do that, and like why she keeps saying that? And I asked that question, because I say that, as a social media guy, I'm using big air quotes. I would often say in social, we do this in social, we do that. And it dawned on me, it revealed itself to me that, oh, she's saying that because social is all about people, social work, social justice, social action, social welfare, it's all about people. And in that moment, in that moment, I went from being, you know, amazed by this epiphany, I just had to be terrified, because I realized I knew nothing about social, nothing. I knew like the phrase, Freudian slip. Other than that, I didn't know anything about social about people. And my wife and her brilliant says, Well, why don't you read it, like, read the social sciences. And I was one of those guys who's like, I don't read books. I read articles. Not Not Not very curious in those days. I'm not proud of that. But I can say that now looking back, she says, I want to read and I was like, Well, I don't know what to read. And she gave me a book called predictably irrational by one of her friends, slash colleagues, Dan Ariely and I read the book and it rang a bell that I couldn't unring it completely widen my aperture, but thought about people. And this notion that the way we cognate these cognitive biases that guide our behavior, that they are predictable in all of us, right, and understanding how these biases work, understanding how he cognate influences how we behave. And I read I went back and read the book, and that led me to calm in, which led me to Lowenstein and so on to so on and so on and so on and wind up happening is that what I was learning from the scholars, I was applying it to my work and the work just got better. Like infinitely better in like it during this time. This is when we launched like I was able to launch Main American Music Festival and launch the the Bud Light Platinum for for Herbalife ionizer push, move the New Jersey Nets for New Jersey to Brooklyn to become the Brooklyn Nets launch the Cliff Paul campaign for State Farm and all these, these these amazing campaigns with like some of the most brilliant people I've ever worked with, we weren't making ads, we're making cultural product. And this was a byproduct of my understanding of human behavior. And it completely changed how I see the world and how I practiced in the world, which brought me closer to academia. And you know, I'm teaching at NYU while I'm working at translation, which was awesome. My wife and I, we welcome our first child to the world in 2014, Georgia. And we said we're done with New York, we move to Michigan, where I'm from, my wife is a New Yorker ended up working in agency called Donor came to Detroit to work at an agency called Donor and I end up teaching in Michigan the same time so I'm at the Ross School of Business teaching while practicing a donor and this this this, it's this duality, this balance of practice, and scholarship. It's just sort of where I was made to be just fit so perfectly. From there started to pursue more of academia started doctorial program. So now I sit at the convergence of that very thing. Practice and scholarship, right, I bridge the academic practitioner gap. Full time of academic at the Ross School of Business University of Michigan. While I get a chance to work with some amazing, amazing clients, like Peloton, for instance, it's been awesome. And that's where I sit today right now.

Peter Szczerba - I'm so overwhelmed by the number of questions I have that I want to ask. It's actually kind of daunting to pick one out but I am just going to start at the beginning where I feel like you describe an experience with education that a lot of people have, where they very quickly find out that what they're studying isn't something that they want to be doing. You ended up finishing your degree in engineering, but then you, you made the decision that in spite of finishing that, and the pressures you may be had from family or elsewhere, that you're going to pursue internships in the music industry, like, how did you? How did you sell yourself, as you know, because I think that's transferable to people's experiences when they've worked a decade in an industry and decide I need to do something else. And they're trying to sell themselves in a place they don't have experience. How did you do that? Like, what what was that experience? Like? And how did you end up landing your internship?

Marcus Collins  - Yeah, I mean, you make a really good point. And my, my relationship with with school at the collegiate level, was very much strained in the undergraduate years. And it wasn't because I didn't like engineering like that. That's actually when I look back, I actually was very much fascinated by carbon chains, and how they network together to create the tangible things that we use, I thought that was just absolutely fascinating. I think that the way that I learned was not congruent with the way that that material was taught. And not that the material is taught poorly, it just wasn't taught in a way that I am able to, to understand it and to apply it. And I didn't understand that until I became an instructor, my subject me educator myself, that we all learn in different ways, we have to understand the the modalities by which people are able to learn so that we can build a design for we designed for learning experiences that it has, it's not as much about the content as it is about the design of the experience. So that that was a that was a big learning for me a big aha moment for me once I started to, to, to be in the classroom, as an instructor. But as far as like selling myself I mean, truthfully, you know, for me, being an undergraduate student in engineering school, the College of Engineering was like my side hustle. Like I like I was, I would literally say that I'm getting this degree for my parents. This is in fact, this is no cap, total truth. I don't even have my undergraduate degree in my house, it's on the wall of my parents home, it is in their house, like that's yours. I did that for you. Right. And clearly, there was some bit of it for me, obviously, but I just didn't feel like that's where my heart was. And that's where my focus was. So I spent all of my extracurricular time that is all my time when I wasn't in the classroom. I spent the majority of my time in the recording studio at the University of Michigan, there's a thing called the media union full uphonics board, HD Pro Tools system, Norman microphones, it's unreal, is a full out high class recording studio at the University of Michigan. So I spent my time there, and I can book like eight to 12 hour sessions. And there weren't very many people using that resource. So I started cutting my teeth there, I've just spent so much time woodshedding getting better. So I would position myself as Yes, I'm a college student. And my classes were either in the College of Engineering, or in the School of Music, but it was all like I am a musician. Like I have here to receipts me I had like tons of records, sons of songs that are recording, I just so happened to study engineering. So happen to have my degree in engineering, but I never positioned myself as an engineer, because never really felt like one. Interestingly enough, though, today, I pride myself on the engineering side, because it taught me how to think I just didn't have enough and to have a wide enough prayer view, wide aperture to understand that those things were happening.

Peter Szczerba  - So some of this resonates so strongly with me because my background, I had a Bachelor's in science, biochemistry major in a science and business program here in a Canadian University of Waterloo and similarly within one lab, I knew I was never going to work in the lab. And my focus went directly into my marketing finance courses economics, and I'm like, I'm going to figure out how to use whatever technical acumen I pick up from this science stuff and apply it in the world of business. And so what you're describing to me, it resonates hugely, but what I love is okay, so you know you essentially through your own volition and commitment and passion, build a portfolio that helps you sell yourself into an internship role for something you didn't have an education in and I love that you basically this is called on your potential and you literally took ownership of a skill set you didn't have but you want it to have so you can work where you wanted to.

Marcus Collins  - Dude, like like, dig dig this like when I met with universals, the universal came to campus it did just like they did their, you know, their corporate presentation thing and people are inline to get The people their resume. I didn't even bring my resume. I brought my demo. I was like, boom, this is me. You want to know about who I am? It's all representative here. I gave it to them. And I got a phone call the next day.

Peter Szczerba - And see, I love that you said that, because the next thing I wanted to talk about is how do you go then from internship? Where does the bravery and the courage come from, or the confidence come from to go into a startup? Right, which is a whole different type of endeavor, a different environment. And you already encapsulate that perfectly and telling me that you completely bucked the trend, and said, No, here's my demo tape. This is me. So bridge from that into the headspace you're in to now go into this startup space, in regards to a record label, and, and so on and so forth. I'd love to understand what the, I guess the psychology behind that was.

Marcus Collins - So I felt like the whole time. And I suppose I've always felt this way that I was always playing catch up. I felt like because I was doing engineering, but really wanted to be in music really wanted a career in music that didn't fully give myself to music. And therefore, I was behind all my peers who did. So anybody who was like full fledge, I'm a musician, I'm pursuing this thing, who, you know, packed their bags and moved to New York to like, really make it happen. I felt like I was behind them. Even though I was doing it in this safe bubble of university in in Arbor, Michigan, there's no idealic environment. Like I just felt like I wasn't where they were. So when I left school, I was like, I gotta I got nothing to lose here, I feel like everything is to gain that everything is everything has to be full, all or nothing. And truthfully, I do run that way as a person in general, like, you know, a high risk, high reward sort of kind of where my disposition, but I really felt like I had to make it happen. And for an industry like, like music and entertainment broadly, where there's so there's such a supply of people who want into this industry with so few spots, relative to the people who want in that I felt like I had to be bold, or there's no way I was going to win. I had to be. So I did the internship at Universal Music Group. It wasn't what I wanted. It was it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I mean, if you asked me I thought I was like I'm chilling out with with P Diddy and r&b. In my mind, that's the that's the mental model that I had of what this experience is going to be. But ultimately, like I was making been cards, and if you don't want been cards are, think about your local mom and pop store. This is like 2001 sorry. So local mom and pop store, you go to the mom and pop store and there's like the name of the artist. So like your like Eminem and Nelly and blot instead of having the their names in like, Times New Roman, like sometimes you see like creatively written. That was my job. That's what I was doing. I was doing that. And then I was like hanging posters when artists came to town. And that is not what I went to the music industry to do. Like, I felt like that all this talent that was being put to waste hanging posters and making bin cards. I felt like I was like wasting my time. So what's interesting was over, I was like, I'm done. I moved to move back to Ann Arbor And I ended up running a recording studio for one of my professors in the College of the School of Music. So we had Studio A Studio B, I ran Studio B for him. And essentially, when the paid sessions were over, and they weren't many of them, honestly, when the paid sessions were over, I recorded my stuff I called my friends from Detroit, like come on up, man. Let's record some stuff. Like let's record something like again, honing the craft, like developing the craft getting better at the craft. And I realized that I'm making the music, but I haven't made any inroads to the business side. And I'm really honest with myself, be introspective. I knew anyone any parts of that, like I just did, like, I'm the kind of person who like, I don't like to negotiate. I just don't like that stuff. I don't like it. And I didn't want to be a part of it actually felt like it would it would hinder my creative side. So I thought to myself, I need some help. I need someone to handle the business while take care of the music. So I reached out to my dear friend who I knew someone that I trust as someone who that when they walk into a room, it lights up. And I was like, Oh, that's Mike Muse. And this is like my dear friend from from from college. We knew each other when I was in high school. He was a year ahead of me. And I was like, oh, Mike, I was like I'm going to see if Mike was willing to do this. Mike was also an engineer who didn't want to be an engineer. He was working at an American Express and Florida of all places. So I called him up and said, I have an eye for that. I want to I want to pitch your way. They must start in this music company. And I want to partner and I was like Before you do anything before you even think about it, I want you to buy this book, which is like everything you know about the music industry. The 101 things to know about the music industry that I mailed to my demo. I said, listen to it, read this book, I'm going to Florida in a month to visit my brother who's living there. Let's have lunch, let's talk. a month goes by, I fly to Orlando, and my brother was living in Stanford, Mike and I have lunch. And he says I'm in two weeks later, he packs his bags, moves to Detroit, and we start a record label.

Peter Szczerba - It's, I mean, it's unreal. Even that, in terms of taking ownership of where the trajectory of your career and your professional life and achievements are going to go in the way that you were able to sell your partner on your passion and your idea and your vision. Right, in that sort of bold way, I think is consistent with everything you've talked about so far, and how you've managed to, to advance kind of like your professional achievements. I and so I love hearing that. And, but then again, you know, you have this record label. And then you talked about the fact that things started to unravel a little bit. So I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about like, what were some of the pressures or some of the challenges you started facing that had you go back, retool and go to business school? Like, that's in direct conflict with what you just said about not wanting to be part of the business aspect of the music industry? I need to understand.

Marcus Collins - Yeah, I'm with you. I don't blame you. Yeah, so what started off was that Mike was gonna be my manager, like, when I start this company, where I write and produce, and Mike will take care of all the business, I think he's gonna manage me. And he's like, bet. Cool. So it comes up to do that. And then we're like, Well, you know, I got these artists that I'm working with, like, you know, maybe we can sort of develop them, like, pitch them, right to get picked up. And while we're doing that, we can try to sell music. So that was sort of the gig. Like, we were trying to pitch music, trying to get good music sold. And we go to New York once a month to get stuff sold. And nothing was really happening. I did a remix here there, but nothing really substantial. And then Mike and I was Mike who was like, You know what, we're sort of acting like a record label, why don't we just be a record label, we have these artists we are developing, let's sign them. And we'll just put our music out ourselves. And this is now we're looking at 2004. iTunes is now opening up the kimono for independent artists. And we said maybe we can make that's a distribution outlet for us. So we decide to do so we sign these artists that we've been recording and you know, demoing with, make them sign them as artists. And we record this album as a compilation album called marks project. And we're gonna do that as sort of like our introduction to the world. Any ideas that will then start recording individual albums for each of these artists, we'll sell them independently and maybe get picked up by a distributor. Right? Someone distribute the music for us. And that was the thing, right was the imprint we're basically building called Muse Recordings. Because we thought Mike had an amazing last name. His last name Muse. Perfect. We call it Muse Recordings. Great, boom, there it is. And we record this album, and we go to support the album. And the album isn't selling a lot, that make a lot of money off the album. But we're actually meeting brands who are interested in sort of the story of what we're doing, and gives us opportunities, right? We, we had Starbucks sponsor, our album release party, we ended up doing a tour with Sprite, and the rhythm and rims tour for for the NBA. One of our songs got licensed for a McDonald's commercial, like all these things are happening, and has very little to do with us selling music, but more so about like, how do we use music as a vehicle for marketing? So when so while that's happening, I'm like, well, that's guess that's the business model. Right business model was like, whatever was working, that's what we went with. It wasn't we were engineers. We weren't business folks. And that was going well until it wasn't. And once those things start to slow down, we wouldn't have the income. And we had to think about what are we going to do here? And so I figured one of us to Mike and I and between Mike nine talking, we say then what of us go to business school man was to figure out and and I say, Look, I'll do it. Because Mike's like, I don't ever want to do that. And I say I'll do it. And at that time, Mike was getting really interested in politics. So I go to business school, go to Ross School of Business University, Michigan to get my MBA. And Mike goes to volunteer for this junior senator, out of Chicago with a really interesting name. Like Barack Obama.

Peter Szczerba  - You got to be kidding me.

Marcus Collins  - Mike volunteers with Barack Obama's first campaign for president. He wins. Mike becomes the youngest person to ever raise over a million dollars for a president crazy, it's it's unreal. And Mike's entire career now becomes this, this intersection of popular culture and politics. While I'm going into this trajectory of business school, and thinking about brands and marketers and how they navigate this digital world that we live in, in, how do we make sense of it? How do we use it as a vehicle to connect things, which, interestingly enough, my work and my research rests, right in the center of networks, which is what I did as a an engineer and in material science, it's full circle fancy that.

Peter Szczerba  - Okay, so yeah, I mean, you've been dropped a couple times. So we're gonna have to address some of these names in a moment. But like, so you you now you go back to business school, you're starting to connect the dots between you know, your previous academia, your industry, your, your, your path, forward, starts to take shape, you end up going to work for Apple now, right? And so how did that come about? Is that a direct outcome of the B-school? Was that something you pursued directly? Like, what sort of active role did you take in getting that opportunity?

Marcus Collins  - There was both. So I felt that I'm gonna go to business school to figure it out, because our company's unwinding and I need to press reset on my career, my life. So I go, I go to Michigan, somehow another only through divine inspiration through divine intervention. Rather, they let me into the business school, I say if they, if they, if they admitted 500 people, I was the 500th person for sure. So I get in there. And you know, the interesting part for me was that if I said, if I'm going to go to business school, then I want to work for a company that's actually leading this disruption in digital in music, right? That's like, I want to work for Apple period. And like I told you, that guy was a pretty, you know, high risk, high reward kind of person. When I applied to undergraduate, prior to college for my undergraduate degree, I only applied to Michigan. And when I applied to the MBA program, I only applied to Michigan. And when I got to the MBA program, I only recruited for Apple, because that's where I wanted to be, in my mind is like, Why waste time, and effort and energy doing something that you kind of want to do, as opposed to putting all your effort and energy to thing you really want to do? So I was like, I want to go out and work for Apple. That's what I'm gonna do when we're for Apple, and specifically, I want to work with with the logic, the logic pro team, that's the Pro Audio software suite, that Apple makes. That's right, that's a team owner work with and Apple is the company I want to work for. So I did the recruitment process at Ross for first years. And you know, people was like, go, you're only going to recruit for apples like, Yeah, but why would I do anything else? And it was, and I said to myself, this is the smartest thing I've done or the dumbest thing I've done in Apple because Apple's recruiting window for for MBAs, at least it's, it's much later in the first year than it is all the other companies like companies, they come to campus like, as soon as you hit campus. But Apple, I didn't get my first interview until I did the on campus interview, which was in late January. And my first interview with the team, they put me in queue to interview with the iTunes team was in March. And that interview came I was in Barcelona, I got an email, and it said, Hey, we'd love to schedule an interview with you With you know, the team blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, Matt Fisher is wanting you to yada yada interviewed these people. When can you chat? I was like, oh, bet I'm in Barcelona right now. I'll be back. I'll be back in a week. There's that No, no, we can chat today. Like that's gonna happen. Okay. So I get to I get the internship, which is dope. I go to Cupertino for the summer and the idea like in MBA programs that you take full, you do full year in the MBA program, you intern for summer, and then you come back to finish the second year, the MBA program. But the idea is that if ideally, that internship that gives you a full offer at the end of the internship, so you come back to the company right after your second year, that's the ideal switch. That's that's what that's for MBA students like dream about this where they hope for a long for, and that's where my aspirations were also. So I did a really a very successful summer, very positive summer at Apple, and this is the summer of 2008. And at the end of the summer, my boss, he says, Man, you crushed it. That was amazing. do such a really good job. And normally I would give you offer right now, I'd give you an offer. However, however, we're in the middle of a hiring freeze, because we're like, on the precipice of a recession, and there's a hiring freeze. So I can't, we're not getting any offers right now to no one, no one's getting an offer. And I was like, oh, that, that sucks. But he says, however, technically, you're an employee. So I can actually hire you full on. Now. And I was like, why I hold another year of business go to finish. And he says, just work remotely. And you come to Cupertino as need be. And I was like, oh, man, sign me up for that. Absolutely. So I spent my entire second year of business school, working in Apple, putting things in the world, for Apple, like launching programs with Nike, Target, Best Buy, like I like I'd help with Apple's participation with the Nike Human Race, like, it is unreal things. As an MBA student, it was, it was crazy. It was crazy. It was unbelievable. And just super grateful for it.

Peter Szczerba - I there's, there seems to be a pattern here, because I'm listening to these stories and these anecdotes, and, you know, anytime a young professional or new professional gets into their career, the advice is always, you know, say yes to everything figure it out later, right. And just work really hard. Get all the experiences you can as quickly as you can, and just, you know, fail forwards all of those, you know, typical typical pieces of advice you might receive. But as you tell the stories, you're getting these opportunities, these things are happening, you're making decisions. And then when opportunity like this, for example, which would be very difficult to manage Business School, while working full time for a company as demanding as Apple in a space that's your passion. So you care about the outcome of your work, right? I think that's a daunting choice to make. And it seems like you just you probably just said yes, immediately. How do you know, up until this point, your career and then I imagine that this continues to be a theme later, you know, how did you you keep just managing these types of opportunities, irrespective of how daunting they were.

Marcus Collins - It's because that's there was no other choice, in my mind. So in my mind, now, I'm not now playing catch up from the four years, five years really, of undergrad where I wasn't fully doing the thing I wanted to do. I'm in business school with like, these brilliant people, like unbelievably smart people. Like literally there was a rocket scientists in our cohort. Like it's crazy, right? just unbelievable, unbelievably, smart, accomplished people who were in the MBA program and Ross, and I thought, the dumbest person there by far. And I felt like the five and a half years that I was a songwriter, writing love songs, like I just felt I just felt so over my skis. So so. So punching, again, above my weight that I had to say, yes. any opportunity to, to get in the building, as long as it was in the trajectory that I was going, you say yes to it, you make it happen. Like, because the alternative? I know what the alternative look like, it's what my life was beforehand. And that wasn't trying to go back there. So you make it happen. I felt like i didnt have the luxury of saying no, Now granted, I was gonna say yes, because this is what I wanted. And, you know, you you cut the fat where you cut the fat, right? Like, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't have much of a social life, like I had in my first year of business school, but fortunately enough for me, you know, my, I met my now wife, then girlfriend, my first year of business school, so I didn't have to be out and about as much as I normally would be, you know, those things, you know, I sacrificed those, those, those other things, so I can focus on the thing that I really want to do. And that's actually quite, that's very much like the ethos of Apple, at least in those days, to Steve Jobs days, you know, would say, you know, say no to the 1000 things you likes, you say yes to the one thing you love. And and that's sort of on my mind was like, I know what I wanted, and Apple was where I want to be, and I felt like I feel honored, I felt it was a blessing to be there. It was a dream come true. Apple was my dream company that was working there in touching things that I never thought that I'd be able to do. And quite frankly, I didn't believe that I was I was capable of doing that. I didn't think I was skilled enough to do it.

Peter Szczerba - I love what you said there this idea of saying no to the 1000 things you like but yes to the 1 thing you love and it's directly in line. It's something that I've taken to heart as of late this idea of dispassionately prioritizing your passions. Right? And and that's that's a hard thing to do. But it seems like you very early on whether consciously or not we're making decisions in this way and I think that's super interesting and I feel like another big juncture in your in your professional life came shortly thereafter let's talk about the beehive let's talk about Beyonce, like just give it a little more detail around this and what it turned into. I'd love to hear more about this.

Marcus Collins - Yeah, it sounds dope so so the Apple and Beyonce opportunities, timelines, interesting. So I finished my, my MBA, right, right about to graduate, I call my boss and to do our one on one and like, you know, so, you know, I'll be done in a few weeks. You know, I'm thinking about doing some traveling before I move out to Cupertino. Like when do you want me there? And he's like, oh, about that. About that. You know, we had some restructuring in the group and you know, you're not going to be a part of the iTunes group like we're trying to find a place for you in the mobile me group. And I was like mobile me,What, and I dont know if you remember mobile me but it is now what is now iCloud. But I felt like that's no, I don't even want to do you want to pursue that I don't even want to like, because he even have the gig. It wasn't like, here's a spot for He's like, we're trying to find something for you. And I was just like, No, thank you. Like, no, and remember his quote was like, dude, even if you were Steve Jobs cousin, you wouldn't they were like there's no opportunity. And I was like, all right, well, thank you for everything closes in the move for me. So I moved to New York, two suitcases and the Nikes on my feet move to New York. I am getting luckily I was making an MBA  salary while finishing my second year of business school so I saved up quite a bit of money that burned through quickly but I moved to New York found an apartment on Craigslist and I was just beating the bushes man trying to meet everybody. And I had meetings with with with with Kevin Liles, with Lyor Cohen met Russell Simmons, Kadar Massenburg like all these like titans of industry when it comes to the music industry particularly with with like hip hop, r&b with quote unquote urban and and like all these close calls man so close like like is like is about to happen and then it fell apart the deal fell apart then fell apart. And I was just fillingdisenfranchised man like nothing was happening. And people would say well, you know, you should just try to get a gig and just work anywhere like you know, apply for Purina dog food and not to, amazing brand. It just wasn't what I wanted to do. I just not why I went to business that why I made all these sacrifices just to get a gig. So I continue to thug it out. Luckily, I had, you know, some savings. And you know, my wife is a New Yorker. So she introduced me to a lot of her friends and her people, they really helped me out while I was there at a support system while I was there. And a bout of serendipity presented itself. My wife's cousin used to work at Ticketmaster, ICM. And she says, Hey, you know what I used to we used to work with like Beyonce people. We used to do ticketing for her her tours. I'd be happy to introduce you to a guy over there, who runs digital over there. He's amazing. I love to introduce you to them. They bet please do. Please do. So she sends an email to to the gentleman with me on CC and in my resume that said Marcus, blah, blah, blah, you should meet him. He's great. He's great. He's great. I respond. Thanks so much, Lauren. My wife's cousin. Thanks so much, Lauren. Hey, so and so it's good to get to meet you. You know, love to catch up let's find time to chat, press and then I get the bounce back email. So So does it work here anymore? Like Great. Another disappointment. That was a story of my life. And you're right, yeah, that summer. 2009 is a story of my life. Of course it bounced back. But then we get an email, Laura and I get an email from the general manager of Beyonce's record label and management company. Music World Entertainment, she says, Hey, so and so no longer works here. But we love to meet Marcus. I was like, Oh, here we go. This is cool. It's so crazy, right? so crazy. cuz she's the general manager, his email, though I get the bounce back alert. His his emails were forwarded to her. So they're like, you know, Hey, can you you know, we're like schedule some time. Great. Cool. So I remember at this time I'm consulting with an agency in the city. And by consulting I was getting paid in Nike gift cards, by the way.

Peter Szczerba - Checks over stripes, right like you Can we just very quickly say that on the record, from here on out, anyone on this podcast knows his checks over stripes?

Marcus Collins - Dude, I was legit getting paid with Nike gift cards in the middle of a recession, Summer 2009 living in New York City. So I'm on the train, I get off the train, I check my phone, check my email like you normally would. And I get an email from music world. This is the record label management company from Beyonce, and says, Hey, you know, we'll schedule time with you to meet Are you available today? And now I'm like today, and at this time? I'm living in Riverdale. I have on jeans flip flops in a polo shirt, and I have a backpack, my computer and everything with me. And I'm like, sure. Yeah, totally and I'm like, it's the music industry, I could come in like this. I was like, but no, no, no, I want them take me seriously. So I went to H&M. I bought a suit off the rack, bought some shoes. Then I went to kinkos FedEx to get my resume printed up. I made a portfolio got it all printed out a few hours before the interview and I'm like I'm gonna show and prove. They didn't say it was an interview. They said it was a discussion just to chat, you know, nothing like Oh, just chat. But like I'm gonna really show out so I show up suit and tie with all my stuff. And they're like, we are ready to see you. I walk in a room and it is a fallout interview. Like it's like a semicircle around me five people. And I'm like, Thank God I did this. I would have looked like a schmuck in there with my jeans and flip flops.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah. Like this idea of being over prepared, right and making the conscious decision, right to take control of the potential outcome control the narrative and the optics around you as you walk in. Like, you know, whether you did that understanding the magnitude of the decision in the moment or not like reflecting on it and being able to, to look at what impact it had downstream. Like that's a big decision, like a simple decision in the moment but something that that as you are probably about to explain and huge ramifications in terms of what happened next.

Marcus Collins - Yeah, I just think it's man this is this is God's discernment. right this is that still small voice speaks to you because I did it from a from a from a hubris stance, like I'm a show out show these guys but I mean business. Right. And little did I know that I was just showing up the way I was supposed to. And here's, here's where things get interesting. So good interview, good conversation, blah, blah, blah, with five folks. Lovely people actually went on to be my colleagues and loved them dearly. So the story I've been told is that after that meeting, they tell Matthew Knowles, Beyonce's Father, he's the president and CEO of Music World Entertainment, her management company record label. They say, Matthew, we met this guy, Marcus. He's amazing. Here's his resume, they sent it to him. And Matthew goes, he's not real. He's fake. Oh, so you mean to tell me this guy just so happened to have started a music company? Oh, okay. Okay. And he just so happens to have an MBA from the University of Michigan. Oh, okay. Okay. He just so happened to have worked at iTunes. Oh, and he's black. And he's an engineer. Come on, this is a just a joke. And you're like, No, we met him he's real. So Matthew says, I want to meet this guy. Tell him out to Houston. I want to meet him because Music World is based in Houston. Right. So I flew out to Houston for my first interview, first of two interviews with Matthew Knowles. Just because he was curious about this guy that he thought was a fraud. He thought he was being catfished. And he so he flew me out there off of just curiosity. This is about just like, sure, you know, I want to see if this guy is is real or not. And that's how I got my interview with with Matthew Knowles, which turned into a gig running digital strategy for Music World Entertainment and our biggest artists, Beyonce Knowles.

Peter Szczerba - I mean, so what's incredible about hearing how this comes together is you know, you even had like hearing you recite what Matthew described, you're like, dossier in that moment, right? It all came together, right? You had the perspective of an engineer, you had the act human of an NBA, you had the scars from the music industry, where you cut your teeth, and all this came together in the right moment, but as a result of a lot of conscious decisions and commitments that you made. And I think that that says a lot right, that if you are making these types of decisions with great purpose, right And you're staring committed to whatever your vision for yourself is that it does come together. And I think that that's really interesting. I'd love I mean, I'd love Just a quick moment, if you could summarize what it was like working for somebody like Beyonce, and then briefly talk about from there. You know, you mentioned earlier on that, you started to question whether it was you who was impacting the success that this person was having? Like, how did you deal with that, and then you ultimately seemingly made a decision to move into advertising, right? Where you ended up in social, like, the decisioning. around that, right is what I'm really curious to hear about, because I think a lot of people might feel this way in totally unrelated industries and professions, where eventually, they simply want to be the ones driving the impact, because I think that that's a big motivator for a lot of people. So like, how you tear yourself away from working from Beyonce, to making sure that it was you driving the impact in a in a in a, in a different, you know, space.

Marcus Collins - It was it was it was amazing working with the team, it was unbelievable to work with her. And it was like another MBA program is like going to school again, you had really, really close proximity to Matthew, and Mathew Knowles man,  guys like unbelievably credentialed and what he's done with Destiny's Child, and then Beyonce's career like he spearheaded all of that. And he was very, very open with his advice, open with his sage, you know, his Sage wisdom. Like he just, he just, he was very, very instrumental in me sort of seeing business in a different way, in a way that wasn't as textbook and academic and far more human.

Peter Szczerba - On that note, oh, sorry to interrupt, but like it because we haven't really touched on anything like this yet, did he plays sort of a mentorship role for you in that experience.

Marcus Collins  - Not in the case where he was like, I want to take you under my wing. Okay, Mathew was always good with like, I want to hear what you have to say. And Mathew would take me on meetings with him. And you know, it wasn't a formal sort of mentorship. But I really looked up to this man and he was always teaching and always, like, if we had a meeting he like, what did you see there? What would you see? What did you notice? Right? And you know, and you know, with his teaching was was also de'd scorn you to like, you got to you got the good with the bad, right, like he, he was constantly guiding, and constantly directing. Right. And while I mean, I agree with all of his methods for doing so, it was always in service of, of perfection was always in service of, of optimizing and maximizing the opportunity. So being close to him, was very instrumental for me. But then, I worked like literally my office was adjacent to the general manager for Music World Entertainment, woman by name, and Liz Pakora, who had a celebrated career in music and radio. And then I sat across from Beyonce's day to day manager, Leanne Callahan, who went on to run Beyonce's business Parkwood, who was now the manager for Ricky Martin, like, I'm just with these unbelievably talented people, right from thinking about Jennifer Turner, who literally did the operations for Beyonce's international tour, like Courtney Anderson, who did all these, like dance remixes for Beyonce, it is a small, small team of people who had this unbelievable impact on the world of Beyonce. And as I'm sitting next to these people who are like totally crushing it, I'm sitting on the side, my remit is the social and digital executions, and sort of ecosystem development, that allow people to engage in the awesomeness that is Beyonce. And as I, as I did my own individual inventory, I tend to be like, you know, would this be dope? If I if it weren't me? Like would it be? Would it be dope? Would it would it be as amazing as it is, If I didn't like have my fingerprints on this, but if you just erected this thing, and it had Beyonce his likeness and her everything that she is, would this be successful? And being honest with myself i was like, yeah, it would be because this woman has already invested her craft, in herself into building a thing. And it is manifesting now in the world of zeros and ones, but the groundwork has already been done. Yeah, you know, it's like, Yeah I may have added a little spice to it. But it was already a complete meal. It was already it was already great. And being able to work with her, like literally being in meetings with her. I describe it like, were you close to Beyonce? I say we were on a hug basis, which is pretty great. Right? I would see her we'd hug. And she was amazing. She's like, she is, I would argue, then, and now, arguably one of the biggest artists on the planet. But when you're with her, she just felt human. She's, she's sharp, she knows what she wants. But she's always like civil, and always like, you know, compassionate. And you would think that someone to that degree, that level of stardom would be this diva like person, which is not who she is at all, not even close to it. Not even close. Wow.

Peter Szczerba  - I mean, yeah, I just kind of in all of this story, right, because this is a little bit, it's a little bit different than some of the career journeys we've talked about, and some of the individuals we talked with, and it's just really interesting to hear, you know, how you find learning and stuff from from folks like this, which kind of served for you the same purpose that you know, somebody, you know, in a more traditional corporate role might find in their senior leadership and their, you know, executive leadership team or whatever, right? They're regional leaders, like, people find inspiration and are in awe of like, the the folks who hold positions that they wish to hold later in those types of more traditional roles. But here you are in something that is very much non traditional, but you're still finding in Matthew and Beyonce and the people you're around similar inspiration and learning, right? And I think the the thing I'm taking away from that is, is that you can find that in any situation professionally. And it's just about making sure that you're observant and listening and learning and have that mindset. And that's kind of what I'm hearing from that.

Marcus Collins - Absolutely, absolutely is like you got to be forever a student.

Peter Szczerba - But that bridges perfectly into kind of like the final and current chapter, right, which is like, okay, so you go through working in digital, and in social, you make this pivot, and then you go into academia, right, and now you're at this intersection. And so there's, you know, as you are embarking closer and closer into like, maybe pursuing a larger career in academia, and it became a bigger part of your professional life. What was the what? Were their apprehensions? Were you looking at it and being like, Am I really going into academia? Or, you know, am I truly am I an industry person? Like, what was it? Was there a conflict there? And ultimately, how did you take control that situation and make a decision and end up where you are today?

Marcus Collins - So I think it was it was, it was step by step into academia. So it wasn't like, I'm gonna be an academic now, it has never been that it's been like, I'm going to be an academic. And so it went from me, you know, doing some lectures here and there, to teach in Miami at school, then teach in high brylane, then teach NYU, and then...

Peter Szczerba - you teach in Miami at school?

Marcus Collins  - I taught at Miami at school when I was in New York. So I was at the Brooklyn campus. I taught for two years.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, I teach a little bit there here in the Toronto. Another very cool synergy. Very cool.

Marcus Collins - Yeah. So I started teaching there, and I got teach at NYU. And then I got the gig in Michigan. And it was just like, one class of teaching one class, is about one class a year, then it was two classes a year, and then it was like two classes this semester, and then it continued to build. And the thing is that it's the the, the aggregate, the duplicitous nature of practicing and teaching, that they both help each other, they both got better because of it. And it was sort of addictive in that ways. Like, I want to do more, I'm getting better, because of the the combination of the two.

Peter Szczerba - That's very cool. And so now, you know, given where it's progressed, do you find it challenging to balance the two sides of the coin? Do you find yourself leaning in one direction? or the other? You know, kind of tell me a little bit about that.

Marcus Collins - Not at all, I think that they they both live together right now that's like I'm a bridge, right? And I need both ends of the both ends of the bridge to be a bridge, right? I need the academic side and the practitioner side to exist. Otherwise, you know, there's no bridge. So I think that the the, it's, it's never like juggling the two, it's the balance between the two just requires sort of equilibrium. And sometimes the equilibrium is that I'm heavier on practice than I am on academia. Other times I'm heavier at academia than I am a practice, but they coexist.

Peter Szczerba - That's very cool. I want to I want to bridge into or kind of pivot into into maybe our final question and and touch on the fact You know, you mentioned that you were responsible, or part of the New Jersey Nets move to Brooklyn. I'm a huge sports guy, but basketball guy, my, you know, passion is that and I run a nonprofit organization that focuses on elite basketball training. And I co founded a prep school here in the Toronto area. But why I'm interested in that is because people who, you know, engage in sports, people who are around sports, even in sports fandom, legacy is a big thing, right? And this idea of athletes needing to leave a legacy. And I think that that is transferable outside of sports as well. And I'm curious, because in having this conversation with you, there is very clearly a legacy here. And there's very clearly a lot of things that you've been part of a lot of things that you've achieved. But are you I guess the question I want to leave this conversation on is, are you cognizant of this idea of legacy? Is it something you think about and And if it is, and even if it isn't, I would love to hear if you had the choice right now to dictate the type of legacy you would leave and how you'd be remembered? What would that be?

Marcus Collins - Yeah, and I use the the perfect sport analogy. I'll use analogy that is perfect. Because we are talking about sports. I feel like I am in the Phil Jackson years of my career, where Jackson won a championship with the Knicks back in the day, right? So he's he's credentialed, right, he's got the accolades. He's got the get the chips to show his, his his, his ability, right. But Phil Jackson's legacy is in his in his coaching is in his helping other people realize the best version of themselves. And that's, that's where I want my legacy to be. I want to be Phil Jackson is like, yeah, the dude's done dope things. He did this. He put that in the world, he impact culture this way. But look at the impact that he had when he was not the focal point when he was not the big X. He was a little x. Right and he helped Jordan be Jordan, Pippen be Pippin really helped Dennis Rodman find his place within this, this organization really helped Kobe be Kobe, Shaq be Shaq. Like, that's where I want to be. That's where I want my legacy to live.

Peter Szczerba - That's, I mean, that's incredible sentiment. And, and I think one that could probably resonate with a lot of people who are in senior leader positions. It's a really good outlook to have and I think it's one of those things where, you know, when the tide rises, all boats rise type of thing. And if you're bringing up the people around you, it kind of brings you up as well. And I think it's a beautiful sentiment to leave this conversation on. I've loved having it with you. I feel like we're probably going to have to have another one in the future. But thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.

Marcus Collins - My pleasure. Looking forward to next time.