OYP Episode 18: Sanjay Menon

Sanjay Menon, Managing Director of Publicis Sapient India, talks about how he has found success in his career by evolving from role to role, staying true to his values, and being factual and balanced in his approach to self-advocacy.

Interview

Ashley Snow - Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control of their career growth, and lessons on how you can too. I'm Ashley Snow, and this is episode 18 with Sanjay Menon, every opportunity is worth taking. So glad to have you on the podcast today. Can you start with just a quick introduction of yourself and your career background?

Sanjay Menon - Ashley, Thank you. It's a pleasure for me to be on this. I've been at Publicis Sapient. Now for In fact, I just finished 20 years, about a month from now. And so that's been, you know, my stint here. And before sapient, I used to work for PWC as part of their strategy consulting team. And before that, I started my career with a bank, right. So that's pretty much me. And the 20 years here, I'm of course being you know, full of different kinds of roles, which is one of the things I love about sapient. So right from running delivery for some of our large engagements to running our methodology team to being a CE, managing one of our large relationships out of the UK to running our creative studio in India, to now for the last five years, being the managing director for India.

Ashley Snow - Huge congratulations on the 20 year milestone. That's incredible. So I'd be very curious to know over two decades at PS, do you feel your personal brand has evolved? Or do you believe it has for the most part remained the same?

Sanjay Menon - No, I think you know, it's a that's an interesting question to answer. I think it's, I've got to say it's, it's a bit of both, I think I say the part that stays the same is what stays rooted in the culture, right? And what stays rooted in the value. I mean, I've always seen myself as someone who's a very people's person, as well as being very, very focused on you know, making sure we're creating value, right, we're adding value. So if we're looking at those parts of the brand, I think stays the same, I think, but if you know, with every, every role that you play, and what you do you learn something new, you you grow your perspective, you evolve it. So your brand in terms of how much do you know about the business? What kind of insights do you bring? What kind of perspectives and where can you play, you know, on the client spectrum, that kind of changes. So so at one level, yes, the personal brand changes in terms of, you know, just your own confidence and conviction of the different situations you can get involved in, which comes through experience. And then I think some part of your brand stays the same, which is just rooted in who you are the values you believe in and what you stand for.

Ashley Snow - Yeah, that's a great point. And you mentioned confidence, which is something we talk about a lot on this podcast, is confidence and presence, which you so clearly demonstrate, are those attributes that come naturally to you? Or are those skills that you've had to hone and develop over the course of your career?

Sanjay Menon - Well, I think it's something I've, you know, I have built over my career, there are always things that you're confident about, right? It's just what they are that change with time. It's like, when I was back in school, I was very confident about oration, because I really enjoyed public speaking. But that's very different from getting into a client pitch, right? So you know, what you get confident about comes from your own understanding of the subject matter of the context, and being comfortable that you have what it takes, and you have the ability to enable what it takes to deliver the outcomes. I think that's where the confidence comes from. And so as you do more of it, and you learn, because as every other human being, you make mistakes, and you learn, but the more you have those things under your belt, the more confident you get about those things. So so at least my you know, my take has always been the more diverse you are about the things that you do, the more confident you are about so many more things.

Ashley Snow - So you mentioned that you've played several roles in your time at PS, do you feel like you've been an active participant in those decisions that have been made about your career? And can you say why or why not?

Sanjay Menon - I don't know, I'd be lying. If I said I had this all figured out? Absolutely not. I think some of them happened by chance. Some of them were, you know, adjacent to the other roles that I played. But so for example, when I started my, you know, when I started my career at Sapient, funnily enough, no one wanted to do a support project. And, you know, the project for Lucent was really the first one that we were doing from India, which is going to be a really, you know, a big one. So, I flew to New Jersey, I joined the team, I learned the ropes. And funnily enough, strangely enough, we lost that work actually after the first quarter. But because at that point, I was the only one who had done any support work out of India. I was actually put on to the next project out of the UK, which was a Bordeaux. And I got to run that team, which really grew big and I thought at least set me on my career at Sapient, it just provided the visibility for the kind of work that I could do. And, you know, just I enjoyed myself so much doing that. So some of these things happen by coincidence. And then I think the roles that came later, were a mix, there were some roles where people just said, Hey, you know, I think we're in a tight spot. And you know, you've got the reputation of kind of, you know, getting the job done, would you like to step in to something else were like, Hey, this is completely different, like the methodology running the methodology team was completely different to what I was doing. And so, you know, it was offered to me saying what you want to do go and do that for 12 to 18 months and see what that looks like? And what can you learn from it. And then we'll run the p&l, it was because I was involved in the sales phase. And the clients really liked me. So in the CE quit a year into the relationship, I was the other person they had met in the sales process. So they were like, have you really like this person to kind of come run the relationships? Are they Okay, you know, I'd love to do that. And similarly, running the greatest studio was, I was running, you know, a large part of the delivery organization for North America at that point. But, you know, let's, let's put all that aside and go and do something new and learn from it. So. So I think at some levels, I've been an active participant and other at other points, I just feel the organization has depended on me to get something done. And I'm you know, that's that's something that I usually never walk away from, because my kind of learning over the years is being that there is goodness and every opportunity in some there might be more than some there might be less, but every opportunity is worth taking. Because there is there is something in it, which will add to you as a person.

Ashley Snow - So it sounds like you have had leaders and mentors who have helped carve opportunities for you throughout the course of your career. And advocacy for others is so important. But equally important, is advocacy for yourself and self promotion. Can you talk a bit about what strategies for self advocacy have worked well, for you in the past?

Sanjay Menon - Yeah. And this is a that's a great question, because it's also one of those things that we all can have we have this battle with a demon in our own mind, right, that you know, how right or wrong is it to quote the oft used phrase right to beat your own drum? Right. And I think at least I look at it a little differently, which is, it's not about self promotion, it's not about talking about yourself and your achievement at the cost of others. I think it's helping get people get the visibility of what do you bring to the table? Right? What is the value that you provide? What is the impact that you create, at least for me, I've always done that by celebrating the team, right? Because you know, when the team wins, you win anyway. Right? And so it gives you an opportunity to actually recognize others recognize the team highlight the larger context of what we have done, and then to be able to talk about what is your role that you played in it? And and it's not about putting objectives of what you did was great or not, it's about providing the visibility of what did you do? And my experience has been that when you do that, and you do that, you know, not with a view to you make yourself look good at the cost of others. People actually, almost endorse it and will tell you how good it is. Or it may or may not be, but your job is to provide the facts and provide the visibility.

Ashley Snow - Yeah, I think that's a great, great point, Sanjay, and that in elevating others, you will naturally elevate yourself as well. But there is definitely a stigma around this concept of self promotion. And is there a way you would recommend we can challenge that social perception or that stigma around the concept of self promotion?

Sanjay Menon - Yeah, I think, to your point, I think there is a stigma, but I think it's also comes from, you know, what is the interest that you have? Right? And that's why I go back to, you know, the Why do you want to provide visibility about what you're doing? So if it is, you know, if it is to say, Hey, I think there's a promotion around the corner, and let me go make sure that, you know, people know what I'm doing. I actually don't think there's anything wrong with that. Because at the end of the day, you know, if you're being factually correct, and you're being balanced about providing visibility, I think that's absolutely the you know, the right thing to do. And I keep telling people that look, if you look at a consulting firm, a consulting firm is about substance and packaging, right? Which means that if you don't have substance and you only have packaging, that's a fairly short term game. If you have substance and you don't have packaging, you're waiting for people to find out how good you are. But so you've got to have substance and packaging, which is you have the ability to create the value, and you're very comfortable raising your hand and saying, Hey, here's what I can do. If that's a value, please engage me in the context. And if it doesn't, that's okay. So, you know, to me, self promotion is not about, you know, if you don't engage me, then you know, then you're the bad person. It's really about just being very objective. And you're interested to come from a good spot, which is, your interest is to make yourself visible so that you can create more value for the organization and not just make yourself visible, because the only winner in that deal is you.

Ashley Snow - So if you were starting over at Publicis Sapient you know, speaking to someone who is more junior and maybe doesn't have a team to lead or or doesn't have the opportunity to create very high visibility or high profile impact or value, what advice would you give to someone who wants to own their potential and to create That impact, but maybe doesn't feel that they have the immediate opportunity to do so.

Sanjay Menon - I think my first, you know, advice, even even to myself, if I was starting over is just never underestimate the power of relationships, right? Because you know, when Do people really engage with people when there is an underlying level of trust, right. So as you form more relationships, and you're selfless about recognizing and you know, and elevating others, the same will happen to you, of course, you're not subject to the fact that you are actually adding value. So my first thing to anyone is that, hey, you know, don't underestimate the power of relationships, and look to build as many connections as you can, in everything that you do, it could be in the context of a project, it could be in the context of your office, it could be in the context of a capability could be in on any of these axes, right? But build relationships, get to know people be genuinely curious about others, and others will be curious about you. And then that naturally is a process for others to get to know you better. And then for you to be able to, you know, in a way, show them and, you know, work with them to, you know, to the extent of what impact can you create, so and it's a, it's a slow process, but I at least is one that I've seen, it worked for me, I'm not saying it'll work for everyone. But I found, at least that was something that I would definitely give us advice. But I didn't get that very early on. And I learned, I learned the hard way.

Ashley Snow - That's such good advice. I love the idea of maintaining curiosity about yourself and instilling that in other people having people be curious about you, especially in a company that so values, having a learning mindset, it's more than learning about the business and our clients and what we're doing, but it's also learning about each other, and the value we can drive within ourselves. So one final question that I love to ask, especially to those who have had a long standing career here with PS, at the end of the day, what do you want to be remembered by?

Sanjay Menon - One of the things that has kept me here so long is just about our purpose, right? Which is about, you know, in its latest form, it's about helping helping people in the brave pursuit of next, but to me, when I joined Sapient, it was, you know, to be a great company, and you know, you know, enable human potential. So, to me, the legacy that I want to leave is about, what difference did I make to people in who they became, right? So it starts with individuals, it goes to teams, and that's one of the things that's always kept me going, which is why I've always, you know, wanted to be seen as a leader who's empathetic, a leader who's an enabler, right? And a leader who delivers on the promise with a straw people our clients. And that means, you know, that is the legacy I want to create for myself.

Ashley Snow - Thank you so much, Sanjay. This was such an insightful conversation and so glad to have you.

Sanjay Menon - My pleasure Ashley.