OYP Episode 70: Alison Walden
Alison Walden, former Exploration Geologist and current Global Accessibility Lead and Senior Director Technology at Publicis Sapient, tells us about how championing junior team members can transform their career trajectory, why a broad foundation of experiences enables an understanding of the bigger picture, and how relentless persistence in pursuing your vision is necessary to realize it.
Interview
Peter Szczerba
Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too I'm Peter Sszczerba and today I have the extreme pleasure of sitting down with Alison Walden who's a former exploration geologist, and currently Senior Director of technology and Global Accessibility Lead at Publicis Sapient.
Alison welcome to the podcast. Very excited to have you on today I've been looking forward to this one for a while. Why don't we just jump right into it. Can you take us through your career journey leading up until this point.
Alison Walden
Yes, definitely thanks Peter so um, I'll I'll get into this but the the job. Ah I have now basically didn't exist back when I was university kind of searching around for for things to do and I actually had a completely different None career I started out in geology. So my.
Peter Szczerba
Wow.
Alison Walden
Yeah, so my my very first job was as an exploration geologist and um, you know when I when I think about how I got into it I know I was definitely looking for some kind of adventure I definitely wanted to leave the small city that I grew up in I grew up in Brandon Manitoba looking for an excuse to travel the world. This seemed like a good one. Lots of good travel opportunities with geology. Um, yeah and I only did it for a few years you know I um I ended up it ended up being that I didn't really have that passion for it. You know like I grew up with ah with a dad.
Peter Szczerba
Right.
Alison Walden
Who was counting down to his retirement for about 10 years you know I remember you know him actually talking about it. You know 6 years three months and and ten days Allison so I always knew I wanted to find something that that I had that passion for.
Peter Szczerba
Um, ah yeah.
Alison Walden
Um, and and I really discovered when I was doing geology work. You know I had fantastic opportunities I worked in the arctic circle exploring for gold and I just remember noticing that my colleagues would be you know going out into you know the field every day with the attitude that they were going to find some gold. But for me. I was more cynical I was like ah there' is no gold here. So you know I was kind of going about my day trying to confirm my assumption that there was no Gold. So after a while I was like you know what? I don't have the right attitude for this and and I'm going to find something I like better and I also thought you know, um.
It's ah it's it's a very heavily male dominated field in geology. So you know I decided to switch to something different like web development all right? So yeah I did end up going back to school I was looking for kind of a more creative field. None of my big criteria became that you know I wanted to live in the city you know before before I started.
Peter Szczerba
Right.
Alison Walden
Um, working I always always used to think you know what? what do I Want my office environment to be like and that's another thing that appealed to me about geology because I was a very outdoorsy person really liked hiking and and that's something that you could do every day if if you were going out into the woods right.
Um, or or um, so the tundra as as the case may be um, you know I was in fantastic shape cetera. but but um it turns out that you know what? just because you enjoy hiking. It doesn't mean you want to walk like fifteen kilometers a day through swamps. You know, like using a cut grid instead of a nice path. It's like no.
Not the same thing. So I want to live in a city. Um, ended up getting into multimedia production and I went back to college and I ended up getting um I went I went and studied in a college program that had an internship and it was my internship that brought me to Toronto. So that that is how I got here and um, yeah I started off as ah as a web designer um just doing everything that you could possibly imagine web designer web development user experience like back then so this was early 2000.
We didn't have the role separation that we do now right in in digital fields. Um, and it was pretty fun to be a web designer back then you know you had kind of full control over everything.
Um, different expectations for the job like I did like all kinds of different things like at the None place I worked at I was designing the 3 d spinning logo in 3 d studio max for for Jordan Knight of the new kids on na walk and then um, you know I moved on to pricewaterhouse cooper's.
Peter Szczerba
Oh very cool. All very cool.
Alison Walden
Um I got to design a commercial that played at the June awards using http://flashthemacromediaflash application so like all kinds of cool stuff and then by the time by the time I ended up coming to publicist Apien where I am now in late 2005
That's when that role separation was starting to happen at agencies and and I remember the job that I applied for a publicsis sapient was called Interface designer so I went in in there thinking I would be designing interfaces but actually it was like a typo on the the job description it. It was actually for an interface developer and it like it wasn't until my.
None or None interview where I was like okay wait a minute just for clarity. It sounds like you don't need me to design anything you just need me to code and they're like yeah and so I was like okay that's awesome because I was kind of embracing it. You know it's a lot to have to do everything right? and and.
I Find a lot more people have opinions about the design than they did about the code back then you know like for code they're like whatever as long as it works. We don't really care you know, but we'll get you to change the the color a thousand times so I thought okay this is good I'll I'll go into web development So that.
Peter Szczerba
Um, very cool. Um.
Alison Walden
That's that's how I got to publish the sapient. So here, let's see here. So yeah, so when I was at publicist sapient. That's when that's when things were starting to get more specialized in the digital field. You know I saw.
Um, more of a breakdown happening between the roles and Expertise we were hiring user experience Designers Designers Writers Developers Backend Developers Um, and at the time I was very interested in different web Logs that were available at the time.
So I was really in love with a Lista park which still exists today and site point was like an online magazine ah about web development that I was really interested in and it was around like it must have been 2004 ish when.
I Discovered some articles by trent and Moss I went back and looked it up who wrote those these articles about web accessibility and um I discovered that you know to my surprise I had been developing and designing things slightly wrong for my entire career. You know.
Peter Szczerba
Um. I understand.
Alison Walden
Yeah, like I've been developing some really bad habits and so had everybody else as the as the web was getting more and more complex we were introducing elements to all of the experiences that made it impossible to use them for Keyboard and screen reader Users Little did I know so I. I Quickly corrected my behavior and learned as much as I could about web standards and I assumed everybody else would do the same and that this would just be this little blip in the world where you know things briefly weren't working for people with disabilities. But again to my surprise. That's not what happened.
And you know 15 more than 15 fteen years later you know everything has gotten even more complex and instead of you know, even staying on par without it used to be everything's gotten way less accessible through throughout my career. But I mean that that was kind of happening in the background for me. Um. Me see here as soon as I got to sapiens I ended up getting staffed on this massive project for a huge telecom company I had the opportunity to work with people all over the world. So you know the kind of the hallmark of Publicis Sapien is our globally distributed teams. Um.
You know I had opportunities to go and work with the team in India on different projects which was like just amazing to just meet all of these talented people all around the world and at the time on this very none project. Um I was lucky enough to have as a tech lead. Ah, the person who's now our chief product officer and you've had him on the podcast with Sheldon Monttero so even though I was only a senior associate at the time Sheldon let me contribute to how the work was being done and offer my own thinking and solutions to you know widerspread problems that that were happening between the teams.
Peter Szczerba
Yeah, yeah.
Alison Walden
And just kind of in short I felt really seen by him and it just felt amazing and just the faith that he showed in me made me want to work harder and you know looking back. What I think he actually showed me is that you know with support from the right people anything is possible. Yeah, so about.
5 years into my career I was a manager now and I got the opportunity to talk with a client about doing a web accessibility audit and our company had never done this before so I was looped in by 1 of our group vice presidents from the Chicago area who you know you should look up to having him on your podcast Raju Patel if you ever met him.
And he let me speak directly with the client again I was pretty junior to just go around trying to sell work to the clients. But I managed to sell through this engagement and. That was great in itself. But what did raju Do he sent an email announcing my accomplishment congratulating me to all the senior your leads across the entire company which I was just completely floored. Yeah um and he impressed me so much with how.
Peter Szczerba
That's huge.
Alison Walden
Ah, you know he was giving me credit or credit was due and I hope that I learned that too you know I hope people would say that I do the same thing I always try and and give people credit and kind of boost them along. Um.
Me see here so that so that was kind of my none my first foray into web accessibility at ah at a professional level like recognized by the company and another mile milestone of my career was when I was a senior manager. I got to participate in this year -long in-house and mba program that we have called chief it was called at the time chief marketing technology officer university so this included opportunities for reflection personal growth deep learning and marketing and technology topics and it ended.
With everyone having to do a presentation at a big conference like a real conference and that would have been my None conference speaking opportunity but through Sheldon I was actually offered a slot at south by southwest before that. Yeah, so the first conference I ever spoke at was south by southwest which was incredibly terrifying. Yeah.
Peter Szczerba
Um, oh very cool. Ah wow.
Alison Walden
So um I mean really like just that conference and then speaking at the conference for our and Nba program that really opened up possibilities for me and allowed me to become this person who speaks at conferences which often sounds magical to someone who's never spoken at a conference. Um.
And and really kind of building my reputation. You know I got the opportunity to write some white papers I maintained an internal external blog I got the opportunity to do research. So yeah for the last 10 years I've been doing that I've been building up our accessibility practice and capabilities at public the sapient um and. Finally, last year I presented a business case to our chief delivery officer and I did this with the help and support of another longtime publicist sapient person named Suturita Venkatesh so I had known for years. What I wanted to do to shape. Company skills and offerings in terms of creating accessible experiences and suchi is this person who knows the inner workings of the company enough to know who I should ask and how to ask them and it just reminds me again. You know again, anything's possible with support from the right people like I just I couldn't have put this together without suchi. But today.
Yeah today I'm a senior director of technology and I lead our accessibility center of excellence at publicist apient.
Peter Szczerba
Amazing I mean I this is there may like the reason why I wanted to bring you on is just because of how great the story around how you you've elevated your career into this kind of Global C O Elite Through. Ah, persistence through belief in kind of the the space that that you were focused on and that you had a passion for and it it just goes to show kind of how that really does pay off if if you do persist and kind of have a vision for something and so ah, we'll get to that in a little bit but I do want to circle back kind of. The the beginning where you talk a little about geology and I know you you said some of the motivators that got you into it. But I mean I've just never had someone in that field on the podcast and or any field like that. So I'm very excited to explore this a little bit selfishly and maybe for the audience as Well. But. Like well firstly what? what triggered you outside of the desire to travel and be outside to to go into geology I Mean there's a lot of options that could have gotten you you know met those requirements right? Those are pretty broad requirements and so I guess what? what really got you in there and then once we answer that I'd love to really just talk about like. You know you you said you were in the arctic circle exploring for gold. But it was that part of like a research group for University was it for like a private company. What does a career even look like and how do you like navigate finding a job in geology.
Alison Walden
Um, okay, well yeah, so this is pretty funny before I went into geology I don't think I spent more than 10 minutes thinking about rocks like ever in my entire life. My.
Peter Szczerba
Amazing.
Alison Walden
My uncle had a cabin on the canadian shield near Cunora in Ontario and I went back to his cabin after I was trained as a geologist and I just noticed all these aspects about the rocks that never even occurred to me before and I was just like wow I never even saw these rocks before I was in geology.
But so so I like I you're right I wouldn't have even thought of it growing up in in the middle of you know brand in the middle of the prairies and Manitoba there is no precare shield like what what made me even think of it. It's it's actually I just you know I met a friend I met I met a guy who was studying geology. I didn't know what I wanted to study at school and he told me that oh this like historical geology course is really interesting. You know you should take it so I took it and then just our geology department in in Brandon. It was so small at Brandon University was just like a little family and they just immediately kind of. Adopted me. You know, told me they would find me a summer job somewhere amazing and ah yeah I just got folded into this group. So yeah, this this guy who got me into it. Um I I ran into him in Toronto like a few years ago he's um he's he's I believes the curator of ah of a paleontology museum and.
Peter Szczerba
No way.
Alison Walden
Openhagen right now. Yeah so I ran into him he was in Toronto and I told him I was like hey man like you actually changed my life and he he didn't want to take the credit. He's like no no no I didn't do that I'm like no no, you did I hadn't met you I never would have studied geology. You know I never would have went on to do you know I certainly wouldn't have. Ah, gotten here through the same path I don't know if there's the other circuitcudist route I would have taken but definitely impacted my life.
Peter Szczerba
Um, yeah. A little um, my head is just spinning right now because little no secret like I and I talk about this in a podcast that I think went live just a couple weeks back but like as a kid dinosaurs were my life right? like I definitely had this vision of being a paleontologist by day and.
You know, obviously a big dreamer and like an Nba player at night because those are the only 2 things I care about and I thought that was a feasible career path. Um still love dinosaurs like I'm staring and at like a big model t rex in front of me on my on my shelf right now. So shamelessly I need to get in touch with this friend right? Who now runs a paleontology exhibit because I just need to. To speak to I've never spoken to a paleontologist before and in my head he's just like Dr Alan Grant from Jurassic Park but ah I mean that's incredible and I think it's very you know, cool to see that it could just that one interaction and and then you know the subsequent.
Um, path that that stem from there could kind of change somebody's career trajectory and life trajectory really because I mean it just kind of pushed you in in totally different direction. Um I mean so so you made the decision to go into that course and then you kind of that family took hold and and you ended up in geology as a profession and then. Were you working again for like a research company for a University I Guess what did that career look like and and I guess what is career growth in geology look like like I don't know what what that path even even looks like.
Alison Walden
Well I started off working for a private company I worked I worked for Naranda and that's when I was doing exploration geology in the arctic circle looking for gold.
Um, and yeah I mean I worked there for I just did a short contract there and then I worked for the ministry of northern development and mines in Ontario so I was a regional support geologist for the M Anddm and
And and that was really fun that that was like helping prospectors understand the geology of the land that they had staked a claim on you know and doing property visits and spreading the word about different you know, mineral opportunities in Ontario in different locations that people might not have been investigating yet. So yeah.
It was ah it was really fun. It was. It was really weird. You know you had None of work to do in the summer and in the winter you're just kind of hanging out you know like digitizing maps or something. Yeah, it it was it was very it was very strange um I remember I remember when I was.
Going through the geology program. 1 of my professors was always pushing me to get the kind of desk job that I ended up getting at the ministry. He's like oh yeah, I'll be so much better for when you want to have kids. That's yeah, seriously. Yeah yeah, um, so yeah, like there there were different different attitudes like that right.
Peter Szczerba
Oh Wow Oh Wow. Okay.
Alison Walden
And you know it was definitely. There were definitely fewer women around as geologists and I always remember going to the company Christmas parties this is like especially when I worked for Naranda and and it's like me and all these guys and they're like saying to me do not tell my wife that you come in the field with me.
You know like so so it was just like this. You know it was just like there was sort of a I can't help it. It's sort of a creepiness to it all you know what? I mean like even though nothing was happening. You know it's everyone's professional, but it's like the weird kind of attitudes around female geologists were still kind of there at the time.
That I was working and yeah, so like I said I was I was really happy to move out of that male dominatated field and into web development where there are None of women just women everywhere just kidding. Ah.
Peter Szczerba
Um, yeah, especially in those early stages I mean well I mean ah that sort of culture certainly wouldn't have been conducive to you being passionate about the space and seeing a long term career in it for you right? So I'm ah I'm assuming that certainly helped you.
Towards your pivot. But what a pivot So I mean Web development in the early two thousand s I can understand Maybe how you landed on that decision given kind of the technology boom with the internet and everything is that kind of how you ended up making that decision because. From a skillset standpoint I Wonder how much were you really transit like I Guess how much of it was really transferable from what you've learned in geology over to this space and and I guess you know how did you really land on Web development web design as as the one to pivot towards amongst all the other things.
Alison Walden
Well it it is funny. You know when I graduated as a geologist the price of gold and the price of oil were at an all-time low when I when I moved into web development. It was right after the dotcom bubble burst. So.
Peter Szczerba
Oh Wow. Okay.
Alison Walden
I Just have bad timing for pretty much all my yeah exactly I buy low. Um, you know what? The only thing I was thinking about that question. You know what was transferable you know, um I'll never regret learning about how the Earth works you know, even if it was just so I could explain it to my kids.
You know like I love knowing how the Earth works I Love understanding kind of the underlying structures of our world and and where I am if I'm going to go on vacation I Always check out what's the geology where should I go? What can I look at you know so from that perspective you know I won't ever regret it. But in terms of transferbal skills like I.
I Remember when I spoke at the south by Southwest Conference One of the stories I told was about one of you know a screw-up that I did when I was a geologist which you know there were kind of numerous different screw-ups that all did but the best the best story I thought was you know all of us piled into the helicopter one day that. The pilot was supposed to bring us to this area. We were all kind of new and we weren't paying attention to where he was going. We We just assumed he knew where he was going but he wanted us to tell him where to go and we all had like a map like we I mean it was it was kind of different back then like he didn't have like a coordinate he was shooting for like we were supposed to tell him and we were supposed to figure it out.
Peter Szczerba
Okay.
Alison Walden
We didn't know that anyway he landed on the wrong spot and then he dropped us off and then he said look I'm I'm out of commission for the next like five hours. So I'm going to come back here in 5 hours I'm not going to be within radio calling distance. So we're like fine he left and then that's when we really started looking at the map and we're like ah shoot. We're we're not even we're not even the right area and so we're all just kind of standing around and we didn't know each other very well yeah, we had all just started and and none of us wanted to just kind of sit there but nobody really knew what to do? So. Finally I said you know what we're here. We have all our tools. Let's just map this area.
Like what what else are we going to do for 5 hours right so let's map this area and it can just be kind of you know knowledge that that our company has after you even if this doesn't turn out to be an area that they're interested in. So so that's what we did and then later on we went back to camp and then my boss.
Got mad at me and said I wasted everyone's time blah blah blah. But um, you know it wasn't he knew it wasn't my fault that we landed in the wrong spot. It was all of our fault but but I I I stood by my decision and I was like look even if it just got us into mapping. It was like our None day everybody everybody know got down to business and it's fine like don't worry about it.
And then he was like okay, fine and then he's like you know what we'll take. We'll take your your samples and we'll get the mass aid and and we'll we'll see what's in them. Whatever no, it's fine, but the the big takeaway that I took from that was that I could influence people like who but there's this group of random people that don't know each other mostly mostly.
Peter Szczerba
Interesting.
Alison Walden
Guys who you know might have been construed as being a little bit more aggressive than than me and and you know what I I said look this is what we're gonna do and I convinced everyone and they all listen to me and that that was transferable Peter that's that's that's what I took from geology you know, like that. Um, yeah, yeah, maybe just.
Peter Szczerba
Um, that's a powerful thing.
Alison Walden
Just the the leadership skills.
Peter Szczerba
Very cool. Yeah I think that's an incredibly powerful thing and and also I mean talk about the stories that you're just going to carry with you to be able to tell right? like I you know I you talk about piling into a helicopter which I talk about like piling into the Ttc Subway to get to work right? It's just.
Not the same and and just what a moment right? to make the best of it and to still be productive and I think yeah to this idea of like influencing folks to make the best of the situation. Also what an icebreaker right in terms of a couple folks getting to a chemistry building session on the field I Think that's very Cool. Um. Well I mean with that right? you're able to carry that with you into into kind of the web design web development field and then you know as you stated in your early kind of years in your career that there was no specialization in the roles or separation of the different capabilities within space. Ah, and so it sounds like you were able to benefit pretty hugely from that kind of general experience at the beginning getting to kind of ah you know, test yourself across a number of different areas. Would you say that that was beneficial before kind of entering into that specialized. Kind of a slice of of of of web design web development that you occupied.
Alison Walden
Yeah, definitely the way I kind of describe it is like when you when you shine white light into a prism and then it breaks down into colors on the other side. So so like when those those old web Developers Web designers or whatever webmasters they would call us back then.
Like we were the we were the white light. We had all of the components inside of us and then now it's broken down into that kind of rainbow and and and everybody's their own their own little color of of whatever it is they do. But when we had to do everything back then we had to have such a broader understanding of all the aspects that went into creating experiences. And I found that over the years as everybody specialized. It's kind of like they've forgotten some of the basics that they really need to understand like all of the kind of fundamental building blocks to an experience and those are the things that would make that experience accessible and you know if you if you have a user experience designer.
And they're creating a form for example, but they don't really understand the fundamentals of how form controls are supposed to work. You know like there's there's Usability principles. There's there's research that's been done on. You know when should I use a select menu versus a set of radio buttons. You know when.
Right? When should I use Checkboxes versus Radio Buttons. If if you get a bunch of people who don't really know those basic building blocks and they're just you know trying to make something that's kind of fun. Um it. It might be fun for a mouse user to use that form. But if you're trying to use it with your keyboard or screen reader if the. Person didn't design it the right way. It's not going to work the way that you expected it to work and then that's pretty much the definition of accessibility is or inaccessibility I Guess when something isn't working the way that you expected it to work based on how it's supposed to work. So So yeah I think it's a huge benefit to kind of the old school people.
Who can remember Oh yeah, you know it's actually supposed to work this way and and and how did we get to where we are now so that we can figure out you know how to kind of get back to that place where things work in expected ways again.
Peter Szczerba
Interesting and like for myself even reflecting on my own career as you say this for the None you know I had you know this crash course of. All the different areas of data whether it was implementation Q a tagging strategy reporting analysis Personalization a B testing audience, strategy etc and just getting that full breath of experience across the kind of the full spectrum across platforms instrumentation analysis and strategy. You know it positioned me really well to make a transition into data strategy where I am now because I I have an understanding of the full ecosystem right? And and for me I am pretty staunch supporter of the idea of of having that more diverse general experience and specializing later on. Ah, if if that's the right? you know career path for you. Um, just because of the the fact that it helps you hone context as to how what you do when you specialize fits into the bigger piece of the puzzle and it sounds like similarly you kind of um. See the benefit of that I'm curious in the web design and web development do those opportunities in early career. Um kind of roles still exist to get that. Well-rounded experience or do folks, you know unfortunately have to pick and choose way earlier now.
Alison Walden
I Think people have to pick and choose way earlier now. However, they might have the benefit of of learning about some of those topics in school beforehand. Um, unfortunately I don't think schools are doing a good enough job at teaching how to create accessible experiences yet.
Peter Szczerba
Interesting.
Alison Walden
But but at least you know you might have an opportunity in college to get exposed. Definitely you could take a user experience program now. But then again that's kind of to what I was saying before that's kind of like a specialty way of getting into it. Yeah, um, you know there are little opportunities that that we can all do in our jobs.
To kind of get exposed to those other areas if we take them you know like and it used to be easier right? like I remember when I started at Publicist Apn I was a frontend developer and it was my job to review the wire frames for do to do it just like a basic feasibility check like just make sure that the the designer wasn't.
Suggesting that we could do something with the experience that just isn't even possible. So so and that's the level that they're looking for but but I would kind of employ what I call now as like Stealth accessibility. So I would go through the wire frame and if what they were suggesting didn't actually work with a keyboard.
Or they hadn't provided the inputs of how it was supposed to work with with screen reader or or whatever if there was just a better way to do it that would work for everyone I would kind of put that under the heading of tech feasibility and be like Nope can't build it this way. It doesn't work for a keyboard and and they might say like well it doesn't have to work with the keyboard and I would say yeah it does.
It doesn't work for the keyboard. It doesn't work. So so you can kind of insert yourself into other fields you can but you have to kind of be bold I think to do that now back then it was easier I think but now when I talk to you know Junior people on teams I.
What I hear makes me think that they don't get as many opportunities to kind of naturally overlap you know for some reason and and I hope I'm wrong like maybe just that the projects I've been paying attention to there seems to be more of a like toss it over the fence to the next person kind of thing.
Peter Szczerba
Great.
Alison Walden
You know happening in the world lately and and and and again I blame that on kind of the specialization aspect like everyone's so busy focusing on their thing and it's just like moving it to the next group to kind of in the chocolate part. Yeah.
Peter Szczerba
Absolutely yeah and and what I really appreciate what you said there is this idea of like being bold to insert that thinking right? and you know that and immediately like. Just from moments ago you talked about your ability to influence people and how you kind of transferred that skill set away from geology and in in in that story that you shared and it seems like that then really did serve you as you were kind of passionately advocating for accessibility even before it was like a recognized focus area right. Um, which I think is very cool because that's already showing kind of that that transferable ah skill serving you well afterwards now you mentioned um Sheldon montero right? and how he gave you a voice and an opportunity early on to really focus in on and speak to accessibility on a large project which I think is exciting and. Um, that I experienced similar things where people gave me responsibility and opportunity that maybe was outsized in comparison to my you know career stage or whatever the case is and that really unlocked a lot for me and I guess. We talked a little bit about how that project then set the course for the next handful of them in terms of how you approached inserting accessibility and and and really making sure it was being focused on and and acted on.
Alison Walden
Well actually for the for the project that I was talking about it was more of a I was a general front end tech lead for North America and I was working with. We had a really big Qa team and backend development team in India and we were in uat there were.
Tons of issues coming up like just so many bugs happening with with the code it was. It was hard to keep track of them all and I had never met Sheldon in person before but he invited me to come down he was he was set up at a campus in Kansas working with a big team there and he.
Wanted to to meet me and talk about you know what we were going to do was fix this issue with uat so I was thinking about it thinking about it and I thought you know with the with the number of issues that are coming up. It's just really hard to keep track of them all and and you know you fix one and you end up breaking something somewhere else.
So I had this idea that that we should fix it. It was it was ecommerce site. We were working on so I had an idea that we would we should fix the issues by page like we should like get 1 page perfect and just certify it and then we move on to the next page and then it's really easy to see if you broke something on the None page because it's perfect. so so I came there with this idea.
Which like I would highly recommend anyone do like sounds sounds pretty basic but like come into whenever there's a problem like you think of the solution right? Like if you're closest to that problem and I think this might have been Sheldon's way of thinking like she's closer to the problem than I am so let's hear what she has to think about it even though I was only you know a senior developer at the time and he was a vice president.
So I went there and I talked to him was it was very nerve rocking Even you know sheldons seems quite intimidating when you just? yeah, ah he he is yeah but when you don't know him you're like oh no so I went there I gave him my idea about certifying the pages and then ah the the next day.
Peter Szczerba
Um, yeah, even though he's the nicest human on the planet.
Alison Walden
I was sitting there with one of them. 1 of the developers of my team and I was looking at the dashboard for q a and I was like huh that's weird. Um, the only defects that I see listed here for us to work on today are with or with the homep page that's weird and he's like well isn't isn't that what you asked for click didn't did you not ask. For for him to just give us defects for None page and then we would fix it and and and I was completely floored because he was right like this was my idea being executed. You know and and I don't know if if I can convey the massive machine. That is you know like ah like ah there are like None to None people on a software development team in one of our indian offices right? and to and to get that machine to start working a different way right? because this was not the normal thing to just have them focus on None page at a time. Um.
That that that was massive and it's nothing that I ever could have put into place myself and and he just didn't he just made it happen and and I was so struck by like the trust that he had in me that he's going to okay fine. That's your idea. Let's do it and it worked so.
So this did so many things for me right? Like None of all this like really influential senior leader is listening to me that's amazing and then he let me try out my idea and my idea worked so that's that's just phenomenal, right? like that that is a real confidence booster. Um, yeah, and then you know, just.
Peter Szczerba
Um, right. Absolutely.
Alison Walden
Even just getting to meet the the other kind of senior leads on that team it. It really was a fantastic stepping stone for me in my career like I some of those people are still at the company today along with me like I've been there for a long time like over 16 years and you know when I when I meet with them again. You know some of them have even moved to Toronto and it's like.
I remember working with them when I was just you know, basically a little kid so it's it's really yeah, it was a magical project for for me. They really fantastic outcomes and and enabled really you know, enabled by by Sheldon for sure.
Peter Szczerba
Very cool. Yeah, and I love how you describe being just a little kid because I similarly have kind of grown up at the organization and starting fresh out of school as a junior associate and now. You know as a director getting to work with a lot of these people that I I really did look up at right at that are senior leaders then and still now and it's very cool start being able to work with them at a different point in your career because it it very much. Um, changes the dynamic and it's it's it's cool to see those relationships evolve. Um, but then you know you talk a little bit about ah raju who who then gave you that congratulatory email after you kind of were able to sell in that accessibility opportunity as kind of like a formal project that is such a huge thing that advocacy and championing it took him probably 5 minutes or less to write that email. And send it out and it's so little effort but understanding the impact that that has for people and for their emotionally um you know as well as just how their career trajectory could change after an email like that. A little bit about the impact that that had and maybe you know how you've done that for folks since then as you become you know a senior leader yourself.
Alison Walden
Yeah I remember after raju sent that email out I got my None email ah from Alissa Altman who was also on your podcast introducing herself saying congratulations.
And you know ah Alyssa became a really powerful figure in my career as well I used to meet with her almost every week when she lives in Toronto and you know just being able to be connected to a leader like Alyssa and you know Alyssa sponsored many of my None
Ah, accessibility kind of investment projects that I worked on in Toronto. No it was only because of alyssa that we got to create the accessible e-store hackathons that we did yeah like it was um, creating a template for an accessible e-commerce site that was designed and developed.
From the ground up considering accessibility none we have that prototype. It's it's available online. The fact that we were able to share it publicly online with everyone. Um, you know that that is due to you know the you know that that is due to Alyssa. That's due to the vision of of my boss Tom Bailey also another fantastic leader who I've had the opportunity to work with who believed in the idea that publicist apient should have a public facing open source github we never had that before I had I made that first one.
Um, to share our accessible code with everyone right? The idea of of not um, not being proprietary about accessibility. Best practices like like trying to trying to improve the state of of software in the world. You know, like by showing what we've done with it. Um.
But but yeah, like getting getting back to what you were saying about Raju you know, just I feel like a lot of doors opened for me because he was so generous in his feedback on on me selling through that work and you know that that was. I was so touched by that. Um I I would bend over backwards for review after that you know if he ever needed me to do anything I just drop everything I was doing and and get it Done. You know because I like this is ah these are good people you know and it's really fantastic to have such good people to work with.
Peter Szczerba
Yeah, and I think that anyone who is hearing this will probably look back on similar kind of acts that maybe happen in their direction during their career and and even in my own experience like they really do just motivate you so much more right? Even if you think about like. You know from a different perspective. You've had this accomplishment. Maybe None of your none big ones. Let's say ah shared with this group of very senior people who largely can dictate the trajectory of your career in an organization now suddenly there's this pressure of like well I don't want to be a one hit wonder right? I need to follow this up with more successes like this right.
I need to capitalize on this opportunity of recognition with momentum and continued delivery of like excellence or success and so you know it's a motivator in so many different ways and it unlocks so many things for people you know I I consciously try and do it as often as possible for folks just because I think it makes a really big difference. Um, so yeah and I love to hear that as just like in a great example and maybe validation that folks should continue to do this. You know who are listening and in a position to do so um, but from here I want to transition a little bit kind of you as a speaker right? because you talk about the fact that your none big conference. Ah you know instead of being you know one that was. Through that internal Mba program end up being south by southwest obviously huge huge conference. Um I guess I'm curious because I've had the pleasure of hearing you speak a number of times and you are in fact, excellent, right? And with south by southwest with the magnitude of that being kind of your none major speaking engagement.
How did you prepare for that. You know what was that process like and what was the experience like and I guess what did it unlock for you as a speaker afterwards because like if that's your first one everything else got to feel easy after that.
Alison Walden
Well, you'd think but that's it never it never feels easy for me. But um, yeah I they're the the none time that I spoke I led up to it by just practicing every day I just practiced so much I i. Actually 1 of the things that I did was I would give that talk to my daughter so I have a daughter. She's None now. But at the time that I spoke at south by southwest oh that was in maybe 2016 so she would have been why can't I do math right now.
Here. Let's cut out this part where where I do the math 2016 she was she was born in 2007 so she was 9 right? Okay, yeah, so I would do my I would do my talk for my daughter. She was 9 and i.
My talk was about the lessons I learned in male- dominatminated Careers leadership lessons I learned in male- dominatminated careers and yeah, my daughter was a fantastic person to bounce that talk out of you know she she was like like I could see her kind of like getting bored in parts. So I would change those parts.
Peter Szczerba
How interesting.
Alison Walden
Yeah, or or she would have she would be confused about 1 part so you know I would I would you know give more detail around that part. But yeah, giving your your talk to a little kid is definitely helpful I it I would always.
Alison Walden
I would always None of all run my talks past my daughter and I would always include my daughter in my talks. So my my kind of transition slide. You know my my talk was kind of about all the different little epiphanies I've had throughout my career and a lot of times those would come through from my mentors that I had.
Um, you know and and a lot of them I've talked about today you know I mean like 1 of them is like trust a junior be like trust a junior person the way Sheldon trusted me right? like you're you're going to blow that person's mind and you're gonna give me the opportunity to succeed and and if they do you know? Hopefully they do this could really make their career. You know, um.
But every every transition every time I had the epiphany I I showed I showed like ah like this volcano erupting and and because my my daughter used to say boom all the time you know like like Mike Drops she'd be like boom and and so I would do that in between all my all my little talks and yeah, um.
My my daughter would come to ask me sometimes like where am I in this talk she she was in my she was in my Mba talk like that. My um, my chief marketing technology officer university talk that I ended up doing she was in there. So she's a constant figure in my presentations.
Peter Szczerba
And now in your podcast interview. So yeah, very cool. Well I'm sure she'll enjoy hearing this one but I mean that's that's I think that's such a simple thing right? like especially if you have your own kid or one that's.
Alison Walden
Yeah, and now in the podcast and yeah.
Peter Szczerba
I Guess available to you through family or friends right? Why not I think that's a great way of of giving a shot to make sure everything can be understood and and you're not losing the audience because I think like to your point like a kid of that age would just have such exaggerated reactions right? because it's just unfiltered and so you know there's no.
Peter Szczerba
Um, yeah, there's there's no filter hiding kind of maybe what their their true engagement with you is which is very cool I think that's a very cool tactic for people to to maybe leverage. Um, but I guess from here I Want to talk a little bit about the fact that. You know there's been a long road Obviously from you recognizing the need to focus on accessibility many years back to now leading a Coe globally at a global organization like pusis sapient right with backing and um that that's a huge huge shift right? and I Guess. Obviously took a lot of perseverance and I'm sure there were even moments where you were I Guess there was the conflict of you believing very deeply in the vision for this and having a passion for it. But maybe um, like did it ever. For example, did you feel like there was like a slow. Ah. Or I Guess a lack of pace in your growth as a result of your focus on it or anything like that or I guess were there moments along this path where it you were challenged to maybe continue pushing for it and maybe you didn't see worth it at any moment or how did you overcome that because I know there are people out there who have a vision for something.
But maybe are feeling set back by the fact, it's not moving at the pace they wanted to and they' are not maybe focusing on other aspects that could advance their career. Um, but they're challenged because it is their passions their vision. So how do you manage that and how did you kind of continue to persevere anyways.
Alison Walden
Well yeah, you're right I mean I definitely got tired sometimes no and and frustrated um, just because I mean I realized you know nobody nobody is.
Out there purposefully making experiences that don't work for 15% of the population that has a permanent disability right? Like no one's trying to do that. It's just through ignorance. They just don't realize that that what they're creating doesn't work for a subset of the population. Um, so yeah, persistence that is a great word.
Ah, for me I was extremely determined and I and I sometimes felt like a broken record you know like I was always no matter what we were talking about and and I think that's really the advice I would give is just if you really want to make something happen and and.
And it really is something that touches on almost all the aspects of everything you do like accessibility I really had that going for me like it really it impacts everything right? like I was asking you if this podcast had captions and I was happy to hear that it did So there's always an opportunity to talk about accessibility and so that's what I would do and I was always the person who bring up accessibility.
And I would get sick of hearing myself do it but I just kept doing it and I just kept doing it and and it's like sometimes you feel like you're going nowhere and you just keep going and you just keep going and then all of a sudden and it's only because you kept going. You'll get this opportunity like when when I when I look back over my my whole life like I.
I started out as this kind of um adventure opportunist. You know anytime I have an opportunity to do something weird or like ah yeah, adventures them like at any travel opportunity always say yes, just boom. Yep I'm there I'll do that I'll do that and then it it became that way in my career too right? like oh opportunity to take this geology class. Sure.
Oh opportunity to work in the Arctic circle fantastic you know and and then it's like oh then I started being less opportunistic and more intentional about it. so so I think it's like being persistent being intentional about what you want to do.
And and if this is what you want to do then? There's like you know there's There's a few things that you have to keep doing Otherwise you're going to lose it and and so that's what I did I just kept doing it. Um.
Peter Szczerba
Absolutely I think that's such an important message and such a valuable thing. You know the way that you've articulateulated it I Guess the intersection of persistence and intentionality right? and then that singular focus to continue pushing for that vision to be realized I think is really important. Whether it's for somebody who's Starting. You know a startup and trying to build a company around their vision or trying to do it within an organization like you have right? which maybe at times could even be more difficult, especially you know if you're not like an executive who's throwing it at the organization top-down.. There's so many challenges in place and. It is in fact, like moving mountains right? I've learned that myself and some of the experiences I've had at this organization and um as I'm sure it would be at you know any other large organization. So I think that's ah, it's a really powerful ah message and and and a great one to to leave off on and honestly I just wanted to say. Thank you This been a fantastic conversation I think there's so much here for people to walk away from from some such a great career journey and honestly I really look forward to see how now this formalized global COe takes shape over the next couple of years and and have you back on here to talk about the wonderful successes that it's delivered since.
Alison Walden
Thanks Peter I look forward to that too.