OYP Episode 49: Sheldon Monteiro

Sheldon Monteiro, Chief Product Officer at Publicis Sapient, tells us about the importance of understanding contrast in the world around you and how critical mastering your filters is to managing information overload and guiding your growth.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control of their career growth, and lessons on how you can too. I'm Peter Szczerba, and today, I have the extreme pleasure of sitting down with Sheldon Monteiro, Chief Product Officer at Publicis Sapient. Sheldon, really excited to have you on the podcast today. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while now. Let's just jump right into it. Can you take us through your career journey leading up to this point?

Sheldon Monteiro - Sure. Thanks for having me. First of all, really delighted to be on this on this podcast. I listen, I've listened to many of the episodes and some of the people you've had on here are really, really inspiring. So thank you for what you do with this. With this podcast, yeah, I'm happy to talk a little bit about my my background, perhaps it makes sense to you know, just back up a little bit and, and talk about my childhood. Because that had a large part in in my career journey and how I think about work and and life in general. I grew up in India all over all over India. My father was a hotelier and we moved around, he was with the welcome group, which ran the had the franchise for the shirt shirt and at the time, and so we moved around from property to property. And I was literally in like six schools and, and for colleges, I sometimes tell people that it was because I kept getting kicked out of the schools, but they get bullied around. That was a really important, you know, aspect of my development. Because on the one hand, as I think back to my childhood, I don't have a whole lot of childhood friends, you know, grade school friends that I keep in touch with most of the lot, because we just kept moving around and I lost touch. We didn't have social media at the time. Most of my friends from back then or really from my college, college years, but what I lost in terms of personal connection I gained in other ways. So for one of one of those ways is my attitude towards change, which is I realized at a very early age that change is constant, not because you know, I I liked it, but it was forced on me, you know, to set you into new schools. And I got to experience a whole lot of new things, many of which I learned a hell of a lot from the other aspect of being the son of a hotelier is that I got to experience contrast. You know, at the time, India, India is very different today. But at the time, you know, there was a lot more contrast between being the son of a hotelier living in five star hotels. And then, you know, essentially the experience that was that I could experience as I could see around me in India. So that contrast, you know, really infused on me from an early from an early age, the need to really appreciate and be thankful for what we had but also very sensitive to the fact that so much work had to be done in order to improve the world around us. And I'm really, really proud of how how much India has progressed. Since then, every time I go back there to visit our offices. I'm blown away by how much progress there is, and also still excited about all of the progress there is to the race to come yet. So with that, with that chapter, you know, roughly around the age of 14, my mom visited the United Kingdom and she brought back a device called a ZX Spectrum. It was a little home computer invented by so Clive Sinclair who recently passed away where it says research so I think so Clive did for a lot of kids in in Europe and Asia. You know what he what Steve Jobs did over here with with the apple and the Commodore 64. You know, it was really a fascinating journey. I fell in love with this machine. I took it apart two weeks after she bought it for me. And that was where my journey with with computers started. I literally went into repairing these machines and started a small business that was all about helping others to repair their machines and and better peripherals for for this this device. So that entrepreneurial spirit was something that grew in me at a fairly at a fairly early age. After finishing my higher education in India, I found myself on a vacation in Thailand visiting my parents and I was offered a job at a subsidiary of the Chicago Stock Exchange. Now, the Chicago Stock Exchange was building out the systems for the Stock Exchange of Thailand. And I was assigned to a team that was building out graphical user interfaces for the brokers that we're using the central infrastructure, right now working with traders was a fantastic another fantastic experience because, you know, with traders, a another characteristic there is that they thrive on volatility, when we think you know, that traders do is about seeking arbitrage when there are movements in the market. And that was another another another example of where, you know, just working with that with that group of people and, and creating systems for them taught me a lot about, you know, being exacting in what we do, as well as leveraging opportunities to create to create competitive advantage. So I really enjoyed that experience, spend a couple of years in Bangkok, and then came to to the US to the Boston area for my do complete some postgraduate education. And towards the end of end of the program that I did, did over there, I saw this, I saw this ad that appeared in the in the Boston Globe. That really was, you know, the start of the next chapter. And it screened the headline on the ad was teamwork. And I talked about the kinds of things that they were looking for. In employees. They talked about kind of work, and I still have that ad I've circled the I circled the elements that really resonated with me, and I literally had to mail this was back in 95, add a male a resume into into Jerry Hussey was his name at at sapient, he was a recruiter. And three days later, I found myself walking around Sapiens offices at one Memorial Drive, I was blown away by what I saw, you know, in terms of the energy and the, the style of working that we had in the in our offices at the time. I mean, literally, back in 95, we were bringing in clients into our offices into what we call design centers, where we would be doing joint application development with them. progressive development, where we would use timeboxing and short sprints within the context of a workshop to in real time figure out what the future of their businesses would look like, right design redesign processes, and then progressively enhance the prototypes that we developed in workshops to do to actually deliver working systems. It was that experience of watching that new style of collaboration that caused me to join to join the company. And I have to say that, you know, the rest is for me, it has been history. Because, you know, I've been here for more than two decades, and I've been able to reinvent myself so many times, against a backdrop of a company ethos, culture and set of values that has really persisted in the company. And, and the thing that I resonate with the most is that we always look at our role in the world as really creating transformational change. And we do that through our clients that we work with. And that was true, then it's true. It's true. Now even though you know, there have been different media in which we've done it. And for me personally, in in that period, I've had the opportunity to grow so much and and learn so much. I mean, I started here, Peter as and as an engineer, and you know, you're working for one of the large fund companies. One of the world's largest fund companies still is and so you know, that initial formative experience as an engineer figuring out you know, how to work with clients in this new mode. Through the work not the technology ranks from building larger and larger systems. Clients figure out their entire enterprise architectures I was you know, in in, in the early 2000s, I helped put together or strategy practices around around it and helping clients with Enterprise Architecture planning and their application portfolio planning. I've had stints in our marketing team. I've run a portion of our business I used to look after our portfolio out of the central region. North of North America. But then I really found that that and that was, you know, mid, mid 2000s, I found that I craved really being in the business of making. And so once again, I came back into delivery work to with one of the large telecommunications carriers in the US, too, we architect and we build their entire customer infrastructure across commerce service, and support community as well. And then, at the end of that stint, our CEO asked me to take on a role that was company wide looking after quality and methods, which I did and thoroughly enjoyed. Because one of the things I'm really passionate about is his great work. After after a few years in that role, it was in, I believe, about 2012, that I had the opportunity to become our chief technology officer for really the customer experience portion of our business, which I did for roughly about six years. And for the last three years, I switched my orientation from engineering into into product, which has been another fantastic journey. This last piece around product is is kind of, you know, it speaks to a lot of the evolution that we are seeing out there in the world, right, a shift from the very role of technology, you know, technology, when I joined the company was all about, you know, hey, how do we make businesses more efficient? How do we improve these business processes? And you know, if I'm being a little tongue in cheek about it, it was all about making the sausage factory more efficient, right? And so from from that role of technology today, we've moved to Yes, it still does that. But it's also about being the primary mode of dialogue with the customers, right, so our clients customers. So when you think about that shift from, you know, an enabler for efficiency to being the primary mode of dialogue with customers, it's on the one hand, pretty straightforward. On the other hand, it changes everything, because customers, you don't set their expectations, customers build their expectations based upon experiences they have in their daily lives with their consumer tech. And so the role of product really is about moving at the pace of the customer. It's about moving with, with the expectations of customers, it's about shifting from projects to focusing on what value can we create in the world? What value can we create for our customers, and as a result, what value can we create for our business, I keep just saying it boils down to outputs, outputs to outcomes. And that's been, that's been a huge learning experience, it's been a privilege to stand up that capability across across our company. And I see the, I see the impact that shift has on our clients when we help them to make that shift themselves. So that's a little bit of the of the journey.

Peter Szczerba - I mean, it's an impressive journey. And there's so much that I want to jump into I mean, even just starting from the beginning, in terms of the constant change that you speak to right, and then that's reflected later in your career, the types of different roles that you played, and again, embracing that change, and even and then you talk about the entrepreneurial spirit, right of standing up a business early in your life focused on technology and fixing computers. But then now you've stood up a practice at a global organization. And and I could tell the excitement, as you talk about it is very similar to, you know, the glimpse of it, I got, as you speak to that early business stand up. I mean, all of it makes sense. And before I jump all the way back to kind of those early childhood experiences, I just wanted, you know, it, my first interaction with you, I don't know, if you recall, is something around four years ago, and you are the first C suite individual that I had ever interacted with, like period, forget just within our organization, a client organization, just in general, in a relatively young career type of thing. I was a senior associate. And I got to be on a pitch in Boston with you for like a big North American quick service restaurant company. And, and I remember, I remember the intimidation immediately started when you walked in and you looked around the room, we had all the slides together, and the story was coming together. And I was there representing data and you looked at it and you said Well, what about what about this, this and this and this? And I was like, I don't know anything about data in those spaces. And I just remember being like there's immediately put into perspective how much more there was to learn but then again, what I was just immediately like impressed by and now in you walking me through your journey makes so much more sense is when we got in the room with the client. There got to a point where the most senior leaders there were asking some of these questions that talked about technology. So far beyond the guardrails that we usually played in at that time as an organization, like physical technology, about testing point of sale, and kiosk and service, things like that, like end to end. And the way you were able to stand up and talk about them in a way that just reused like expertise, I just, it was, it was difficult for me to wrap my head around. And so then, since then, I've been able to work with you in a couple of different capacities, which I've really enjoyed, because you're one of the more human leaders that I've kind of interacted with, which I hugely appreciate. But now in seeing that you played, you know, business role across the region, Chief Technology Officer roles, like developer roles, product leadership roles, like all of this makes sense, right? And across two decades, I can't even do do you keep a running count of the number of clients that you've worked on? I'm curious.

Sheldon Monteiro - I don't think I have a count either, either, Peter, but I vividly remember that that interaction and in Boston, it was a fun pitch. For sure. I didn't realize that. You know, I was I was that intimidating. So my apologies.

Peter Szczerba - No, it wasn't, I want to just correct that wasn't you, that was me. I think I allowed myself to kind of, to fall into the trap of like, being intimidated by how much I just realized I didn't actually know right, being three or four years into my career. So. So definitely, that was not on you, I need to own that one. But it was it was a formative experience for me, because that was one of the early pitches that I got to participate in. And it's become something that I truly enjoy working on. But that I just wanted to share that because it's all coming together to me now that I kind of listened to your career journey. But now jumping all the way back to your experience as as kind of a child. I mean, that it had to be the word contrast, right? I think that's such a powerful concept to explore here. Because even as we work from client to client, and we see in our industry, clients that are of significant technology, or digital or people or process maturity versus clients that are maybe earlier in that journey, we see that contrast, and then because of the experience and working with one or the other, we're able to then solve problems across that spectrum. That contrast that you experienced so early, and in such a formative period of your life. I mean, that has to permeate kind of how you approach everything going forward. Right? I have to imagine that's the case.

Sheldon Monteiro - It does. It does. And it's very visceral. Right? So when you're a child, and you're looking at disparity, I mean, it it leaves an impression on you, right part of it also, you know, was it you know, I talked about growing up in India, but part of it was also growing up in India, you know, being Catholic, which was 1% of the population in India at the time, which added to an additional level of contrast with, you know, understanding, understanding and empathizing with differences. And the, the beauty of the beauty of that experience is really the appreciation of, of diversity difference, and the appreciation of what it takes for people have different backgrounds, different religious beliefs, different, different social strata still coming together and a melting pot, which you know, believes so passionately about the future. And I think that that value system is part of what really excites me about being in the business that we are in, right, because it isn't about just one client or one business. But it is about being able to work across industries, with so many different clients to help to help to produce things that are really impactful in the world. I mean, and how many, how many people can look across their careers and and really look at Hey, I worked in Financial Services, helping you know, fund companies and retail banks and commercial banks, or in retail or in telecommunications, you know, or in or in quick service as you were talking about earlier in energy, you know, I've I've I've been part of programs that have built pipeline management systems and scheduling systems for oil to move across the country. And I just consider myself fortunate to be able to do work that matters across so many different different sectors it's it's really a privilege to be able to do that in my role today and you know, in the course of my of my career here so it's something that you know, I I think I prepared for because of those those formative years just understanding moving around and and appreciate it We all have that change.

Peter Szczerba - And so I relate to that resonates with me really strongly just because for far less interesting reasons, I changed schools a bunch of times in kind of my elementary school tenure, and then a little bit in high school. And I find now, you know, I still in experiencing that sort of change. One was developed a skill set around being able to build relationships pretty quickly, because you're thrusted into these types of new environments, new social environments, I think that's helped me in, in kind of the consulting industry that we work in. But I found that I find a lot of comfort in a balance in change, but a through line of stability. And now you come from a heritage of change, right, and having to be adaptable. But now you've spent, you know, over two decades at the same organization, and you but you've found, it seems like a balance of the through line of stability and being in the organization and being aligned to the culture and the spirit of the place that you work. But at the same time, having the variability of the many different clients, industry verticals, roles that you've played, because I guess what I'm trying to get at is, you know, somebody that is clearly a high performer and capable as yourself. There has to have been moments across your career where there was change opportunities for you outside of the organization that you weighed against the change that was presented to you here. So I mean, how did you how did you make those decisions? How did you navigate that type of potential pivot in your career and and ultimately make the decisions you did?

Sheldon Monteiro - It's a great question how Peter, I think again, on on this, I go back to some of the things I learned pretty young. So my father being a hotelier, I got to live in the place where he worked, right and a number of the his assignments, I actually got to live on property, which meant that I actually got to see my father in action, one of the rituals that he would do that left an indelible impression on me, was the stand ups. So for instance, at the beginning of every day, front office staff, every team, basically in the hotel, whether it was the front office, or whether it was, you know, one of the crew running a restaurant, and you got to realize that in India, many hotels have like five, six restaurants, there's a lot of staff, I think in, you know, in an average property, he'd be managing something like about 800 people or more. So you're dealing with, and managing a lot of people, but he really focused on the people. And he focused on the rituals that helped people to be amazing in terms of grading, creating great experiences for guests. And so one of the things that I have thoroughly enjoyed from my early days when you know, the leaders in our company helped to grow me is that I've always realized that it's about the people, it's about growing myself, and it's about growing people around around me. And when I say growing, it's not just about skills that help us to do you know, the core of the work, we do our jobs, but it's also about the how do we help people to reach their fullest potential, which is one of the reasons why I love what you do with this with this podcast, right? How do we help people to reach to understand how they can create the most impact in the world? And how do we give them the actual skills to be able to do that to reflect on their lives and to build the skills at the same time. So, you know, in the, as I mentioned, in the early years, I was probably taking a lot more than I was giving. Because you know, we the company has always been really good at growing people giving us opportunities. But back when back when I became CTO in 2012, like I've always started looking for where are the places that we can create talent that can just help us and our clients get to a different place. So back in 2000, and back in 2013, I saw that, hey, one of the gaps in the world right now is, you know, there is this explosion of marketing technology. And it's a pretty interesting space, because it's really advanced in terms of tech. It's also a different type of tech because it's about things doing things that hadn't been done before. And if you think back to it at the time, it was all about reuse. It was all about big ERP it was all about big platforms that had been done like you know, a dozen times or more hundreds of times before. But marketing technology was different because you you were doing things that hadn't been done before. Right. The other thing is that you are working with tribes, essentially advertising and marketing people that were different from technologists, those worlds have, you know, we're just colliding. So we had to create talent that could thrive across both those dimensions. And so we started up our own program at the time I sponsored it and I it got great support from our leadership team at the time. We call the chief marketing technology officer University. And it was restructured it as a year long MBA, we would select 20 People from all across our company that wanted to invest in themselves, and really lead them on a year long journey at the intersection of marketing, technology, influence, and personal leadership. Right now that what I found happen, right through the course of that program, I was learning a lot, I had the opportunity to give back a lot as well, and became a movement in itself. So we've we've been running that program since two years ago, we switched it up, we realize that, hey, you know, the, the the role right now, or the most important thing we can give back to our people now, is help them to become transformational leadership leaders in a world that is digital. So we request in the program as a fellowship and transformation leadership. And we've expanded the size of the program, right and continued with that. What I'm really, really excited and proud about is just how significant the influence of those the people who have been through that program have been on our company and beyond our company, you know, they've just taken their careers to a different place a different level, I reflect on each and every person who's been through that. And even though it's an internal program, many of them proudly put it for instance, on their LinkedIn profiles that they know that program, which speaks to the the how meaningful it was for them. But I think it's coming back to your question. It's all about how do we build people, and then allow people to build a company to build our fonts and to build the world.

Peter Szczerba - What I pulled away from this is a different take on a theme that I've explored before, this idea of if you're in an organization, and the environment is not conducive to your growth, no matter how hard you try to find and navigate your path through it, then sometimes you simply need to remove yourself from the environment and find a new one that is, but you had the opportunity to first initially benefit from what was it an environment that successfully did that for you, like you said, you took probably more than you gave early in your career, which I think is probably the is a true statement, but also maybe an inaccurate one. Because in terms of like the delivery that you produced, I think there's always, you know, a disproportionate value equation, right? Where like you have exponential learning opportunities, but you also deliver enormous amounts of hard delivery work, right. And that equation changes over time in your career. But then when you ascend it to a level of executive leadership, you decided that I'm going to change the environment for our people in a major way that is going to facilitate growth in an explosive way for for groups over time that's going to shape our organization and the organizations that our clients, that's, that's a really powerful thing, to benefit from environment and say, I'm going to now transform it to take that even further. So I mean, do you agree with that kind of sentiment, like for folks that are maybe not an organization, but others and even in other industries? Where if they don't have a leader doing maybe what you did, or if they don't have an environment that they themselves have been able to thrive in? How would you recommend somebody manages that

Sheldon Monteiro - I think you're spot on, there be your look, the best way to predict the future is to create it. And so the best way to, you know, to figure out what your next environment is, is rather than hit hot right now, we are in the middle of the great resignation. And I look at that and say, like, look, we are in a time of great change, particularly for people that are in our profession, doing anything that is related to technology and digital, we happen to be in a truly exciting time, we also happen to already be in platforms or companies which are capable of, you know, really creating a dent, but creating that dent comes down to creating an environment which allows for people to do amazing things. And so I have always centered myself in that way, which is if I don't like something if I if I see something where where there is a gap. Is it going to create I ask myself, is that going to create a sufficient amount of leverage if if we change this? And if the answer to that is is Yes. And you know, wait against all the things that I could be spending my time on turns out to be? high leverage. That's where I invest the time even if it is is not core to the job description that, you know, I came into the job with, right? So for instance, when you know going back to, to being elevated to CTO, there was nothing in the expectations that our CEO at the time had of me that says, hey, you've got to start a startup and internal University. Right. But I realized that that was what we could create the most amount of leverage with, look, we are we are a services business at our core, right? We Yes, we have intellectual property that we bring to clients, but really building amazing leaders that are capable of leading change and being amazing craftspeople, at the same time, that's where I saw the most leverage. And so I decided, hey, that's something that we've got to do, let's figure out how to do it. We pulled in, you know, we pulled in help from some top universities, we, we leverage, leverage an organization called Hyper Island, which was great around leadership development in, in, in a digital world, and we put that program together. And I would advise, you know, anybody are faced with a situation where it looks like, you know, the future isn't exactly what they want it to be to really figure out from where I stand right now, do I have the ability to change the future? And if the answer to that is yes, and you have agency to do that, by all means do it. And what I found, what I've always found in that process is that when you present a compelling case for why why you believe that to be true, other leaders, in that case, our leadership team will come forward to IT resources and help to make that happen. It just as a matter of asking and framing the the opportunity? I think for you know, if the answer to that is truly no, like, you know, you're not in a supportive environment where, you know, those kinds of ideas will not be received. And of course, you know, figure out whether you'd be better able to accelerate on a different platform. But that's, that's how I view things.

Peter Szczerba - I think that makes a lot of sense. And I like that sentiment right at the end there. The idea of kind of, if you don't ask you don't get right. And so if you like you said, if you have the agency and you you feel and believe very strongly in an opportunity that you can drive change with to shift the direction of that future. Well, it won't happen as long as you don't ask for it to happen and build a compelling case. Right. And I think that makes a lot of sense. And I want to go back. So you talked about your experience later. With, with the Chicago Stock Exchange in Thailand, you talked about this, this sentiment that the traders there thrived on volatility. Now, I mean, the interesting thing, though, is that just across the two decades that you've been working in this space, there's been a ton of volatility in kind of the market conditions in the technological like evolution, right. The disruption that has come from social media platforms, the, you know, things moving into the cloud, most recently now like explosion in the power of like AI and machine learning, like, these are massively disruptive technologies. And as we embark on things like the metaverse, like, who knows what the potential is there with, with crypto and everything else and blockchain, but like, do you think that that mindset in terms of dealing with that volatility thriving in and even leveraging the conditions that you are, that you are observing in a market to, to work in your favor to steer into an outcome or, or an impact? Has that influenced kind of the way that you've approached your roles in leadership as well, as well, as you progress your career?

Sheldon Monteiro - Well, you and I are in technology. And I mean, I see technology as a force for good, I'm sure that's looking at the world through rose colored glasses, because as much as technology can be used for good, it can also be used in ways that, you know, create a lot of weight, a lot of damage. And so I think from a personal value standpoint, you know, I am very passionate about ensuring that the work that we do for our for, for our clients, the work that I do, our drivers for positive for positive change, right now, we happen to be in a place like that the, the advancement of technology is, is almost inevitable, but there is so much that we can do to steer the steer in a way that great positive change, right? When I think about every one of the technologies you just mentioned, we live in a time where a lot has yet the future has yet to be to be created. And what I mean by that is you think about every one of these technology waves that we've been through. And you really need to have about three or four ingredients in order to get the mainstream usage, right. You need to have the core technologies which you mentioned. You need for there to be killer applications, things that are useful to people to use. You also need to change human behavior. Right. So think about something as basic as, as basic as toast, right? For instance. And you could say, well, you know, a toaster is a technology, that's, that's fine. But you think about what it took to for a toaster to actually become as mainstream as it is today, you needed to arrive at, alright people, people need to be wanting to eat toast, right? Make a bed in the morning. That's one thing, right? So that's the use case. But you needed to have other things you needed to standardize the thickness of bread, and the size of bread in order to figure out like, alright, toasters have become mainstream, when you needed to actually have the same kind of voltage in our toasters in each country in order to basically make that you know, that that use case work. So something as basic as every technology goes through that with whether it be with mobility, whether it be with, with Cloud, we'll go through these waves, where we invent really interesting use cases, we change corporate and human behavior. And we have supporting infrastructure that will be put in will be put in place. Now, coming back to your question around, how do I see our role in it? It's like, look, while those things while we are changing human behavior, while we are building applications, while we are figuring out infrastructure, there is there is arbitrage to be had. And look, we are, you know, in the course of our careers creating as long as we are creating value in the process of making those things, of changing human behavior of creating use cases. And I find tremendous, tremendous rewarding in that now. With every one of these technologies, you reach a place a point at which they just become mainstream. It's kind of it's part of the woodwork, right? We don't, I am sure that before, before we just start talking about it, you didn't spend a lot of time thinking about your toaster, right? It just fades into the background. And all technologies will go through that lifecycle. The interesting part is what do we do to actually create that, that future.

Peter Szczerba - That is such an elegant and simple analogy. But I think about it through the lens, I can't help it, I have my 100 year old home that I live here in Toronto. And for you mentioned, for example, you have to standardize the voltage, every time I turn my toaster or my microwave on my electric power shorts, right, like the circuit shorts, I think about that as like a reflection of society, where if you don't build out the under the fat, that fabric under that innovation and kind of the evolution of technology, well, then you have these inefficiencies or these kinds of these cracks in that experience. Right. And, and so it just feels like a perfect example of what you mentioned about evolving and solving for those types of things, to get to a point where you don't think about your toaster anymore, you know, think about all those considerations, it just becomes a part of behavior and, and human and, and kind of life. And that is a really interesting idea. And I wonder if you could almost parallel that with how you kind of develop skill sets and grow and experiences in a career, right? Like, you're faced with challenges, you have to evolve yourself and learn new things to to overcome those challenges, or to be successful in those situations. But eventually, those new skills fall into the background simply and become part of your identity as a professional and individual. And it's just part of the toolset. And you don't think about them anymore. individually. Right? I think that's an interesting, parallel to me, that kind of jumps out. And it particularly resonates, I think, was the identity that I kind of assigned to you as I think about US leaders. I mean, across at least like three or four of the conversations we've had in maybe even the last year, you know, you've recommended a book. And and and I think I admire the fact that somebody has a storied career like yours, who is you know, by any objective measure achieved success, right. I think a lot of people aspire towards, you know, I want to be a CEO one day, I want to be CTO one day, I want to be a chief product officer one day like these are things people do aspire to, and you've achieved them. And to still see that, you know, you've got a full shelf of books up there, you're recommending ones you just read. And they're the diversity in the spectrum of learning that you have across these different topics that you recommend, I think is like a testament to like that never ending pursuit of new knowledge and skills but something that people have to internalize in and kind of really be have that become part of their behavior just across a career and life.

Sheldon Monteiro - I better I'm so passionate about about learning, right. And it's learning for myself to help others to learn how to learn, to help myself to improve at learning how to learn, it's the biggest thing that we can we can do for our careers. And in my view, and today we live in, in a world in which, you know, learning resources are all over, no matter where you are, even if you're not, you know, working, right. I mean, there's so many free resources that are out there for us to, for us to gain knowledge from. And once you have that, your ability to do additional things with that to bridge disciplines, to bridge crafts, to be able to, you know, Hey, you want to learn about, you want to learn about the arts, you can do that you want to learn about artificial intelligence, you you can do that. The only thing that is the constraint is his time. So you know, the other piece that that really matters here is is how do you reflect on on where you want to where you want to grow and being conscious about how you spend the time and in which, in which resources. And so one other aspect that I just want to point out, in addition to you know, just spending the time Weeding is actually choosing what to read and, and where to invest. And for that, I tend to follow a fairly rigorous process of, of grooming, the people that I follow. So, for instance, on on social, I will follow certain people and I will keep that list, you know, fairly, I put some variety into that diet. So, you know, every quarter or so I look at that and say, Alright, you know, if I want to learn something new, I won't go out looking first for books, or look at people that are in that space, that tend to be generous in what they post on social. And I'll start following them and seeing you know, what they are interested in and what they are talking about, which will then lead me to where you know, what I should be studying or reading up on next. And that that, for me has proven to be a fairly successful approach towards getting into new spaces.

Peter Szczerba - And that's so simple, anybody can do that. Right? And that you've all it's a it's a passive, it's both active and passive. Because while there's an active decision making in what to follow, right and who and, and curating that list, from that point onwards, it becomes a passive exercise, because the just as we talked about it, like social media was something we thought about previously. Now, it's something that we have a reflex to look at every time we have a pause in activity in our lives, right. And so you're just consuming passively at that point, following that active decision. I'm curious, you know, you have a pretty insatiable appetite for learning. Do you purge that list? Or do you follow like, 1000s of people?

Sheldon Monteiro - No, I purged that list. So for instance, if you look at my, my Twitter list, it's usually somewhere right around 100, maybe, you know, some, sometimes it'll, it'll get to about 120. It'll always stay on that range. Because you know, you have to make a choice about choosing your filters, right. This actually came from a talk that I had heard. Clay Shirky back in 2009, he had a deliver a talk where he talked about filters, which really stuck with me. And his concept was really simple. He was like, Look, ever since the dawn of the, or the invention of the printing press, we've always had more information to consume than we can reasonably consume. But in the early days of the printing press, the publishers would take on the responsibility of being the filter of what books got published, because of the books didn't sell, they would lose money. So they, they were the ones that were the arbiters of what God published. And in essence, they were the filters. So you would usually have books that had something useful to say. The problem today is that anybody can be a publisher, you can, you know, create your own blog, you can create your own newsletter, you can Publish Self Publish your books, there are more books being published today than than ever before, because the cost of publishing has actually dropped. So essentially, we don't have any new concept and information overload that's always been there. But filters have failed. So that stuck with me. And when I realized that I said, What's better at being a filter than human curators that are at the top of their fields that are just being generous with their time? So if you choose the right people to follow, you will actually get quite a perspective on the landscape and you don't have to pay anything for it. Other than the time I spent a quarter to actually figure out Alright, who's in that field that is really interesting. And is that the top of their field and are they being generous, and then you follow them and you can learn on your space.

Peter Szczerba - One of this is a perfect example of why I so passionately continue to do this podcast and love and love it so very much is that in one conversation, we can discuss such a broad and, and deep topic as contrast, right? It's through the lens of like your story and how you grew up. But then also walk out of here with such a tactical piece of information and kind of strategy or tactic of how to filter through what to consume and how to steer your learning, I think is a perfect demonstration of kind of what the value that I try and curate with some of these conversations. And I'm excited that we're able to achieve that today because that breadth of learning and this conversation for me personally even is always been huge. So I absolutely love that sentiment. And, and it's I mean, I've took the note down I'm immediately going to apply that to my own social media fault follower group or whatever I consume. But Sheldon, this has been a spectacular conversation. I really do appreciate the time and I look forward to connecting again and doing a follow up.

Sheldon Monteiro - that's awesome. So thanks for having me, Peter. I really enjoyed enjoyed the conversation as always, as always with you. I love what you're doing with this podcast and I hope your your your listeners, you know found something valuable to take out of out of this chat.

Peter Szczerba - I have no doubt they did. Thank you