OYP Episode 40: Daphne Magna

Daphne Magna, Founder of Tough Convos and Management Consultant specializing in Anti-Black Racism, Inclusive Leadership & Team Culture, tells us about the importance of organizations creating safe, fair and equitable environments for all of their employees, the need for individuals to recognize when an environment is not facilitating their growth and success, and how not compromising on her passion helped steer her career journey.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too. I'm Peter Szczerba. Today, I'm very excited to be sitting down with Daphne Magna, who's the founder of Tough Convos, and a management consultant who specializes in anti black racism, inclusive leadership, and team culture. Daphne, I'm really looking forward to sitting down and having this conversation, I'm just excited at the type of value that's going to come out of this and the insights and the learning. So why don't we just jump right in and get to it, you mind walking us through your career journey and the story up until this point.

Daphne Magna - Definitely, um, you know, it's always a story when someone asks, what you do, and, and how you got there. But um, you know, as the founder of tough combos, it's definitely been a windy road. And I never knew I'd end up here. But as an inclusion and culture consultant, I really work with leaders and teams to transform their culture, you know, and I help them sort of dig deep and get uncomfortable in challenges and issues and situations that they find themselves in, because all organizations find themselves in there, in those, you know, uncomfortable spaces. So by helping them create content, and, and creating learning experiences, like some of the tough conversations, we'll talk about, you know, coming up, really helps them build the culture that they're they deserve, you know, and that all of the employees deserve to be a part of.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're going to dive into that a lot more. And I would love to understand how you ended up here, because this is such a critical and important conversation for all you mentioned, all companies to be having right now. And a space to be engaging with and prioritizing, but what led you here, how did you how did you end up kind of founding tough convos and, you know, addressing this, this gap area,

Daphne Magna - you know, I have done a lot of work with global companies that had challenges working with different cultures. And so you know, as a result of that work, it became glaringly obvious to me that the real challenge was around not understanding each other, and not realizing how different your training your education, your values, determine the way you act behave, what you think is good, what you think doesn't work, you know, what you think's appropriate and respectful, and all these things, you know. So the challenge, though, was you see these biases as a trainer or consultant, blinding folks, but some are not really open to tackling things that are sensitive like that, you know, and when you can't label it, what it really is, it makes it even more difficult. And so what I realized is, you know, working across cultures with those various global orgs, whether they were American and Indian teams, or Chinese and French teams, you know, no matter where we were Singapore everywhere, had the same types of issues, and they were all rooted in misinformation, and really, you know, poor education. To be frank, you know, so yeah. So after I was able to really kind of pull that apart, I realized, at the crux of it all, it is our bias, our misunderstanding, and unfortunately, the pervasive racism that has existed for for so long.

Peter Szczerba - This is something that, you know, is particularly important to this, this whole space of one year potential, because we talked about it through the lens of professional development, professional growth, owning your career trajectory, but there are simply folks who are faced with obstacles that not everyone is as a result of some of the things that you're talking about. And so I'm curious, I'd love to get into this, as part of this conversation is some what are some of the strategies that folks who are visible minorities, and I don't even mean across geos, but even just in our North American space now, who sense that for example, their career trajectory is being impeded by some inherent biases, or some of the things that you're describing, like blatant racism, right? How did what what sorts of strategies are there to overcome that there's tons of people who are dealing with these types of issues, and I'm curious, what is your advice?

Daphne Magna - Yeah, I mean, first of all, is you have to recognize we're all so unique, yet we share so Many similar challenges and, and experiences and value systems, right? So there's this, this kind of fighting piece of where we connect and where we disconnect. And really, I think if people focus more on where we connected, then the part where we disconnect would be easier to address. You know, but, but unfortunately, in this day and age, especially with all the just the negative news, and, you know, the, the way capitalism, you know, affects the way we do business really makes people focus on the negative. And that is, you know, the first thing from a corporate culture perspective, is when you focus on the individual and their strengths, you build a culture that is so much more powerful than you picking apart all the ways you're different. Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't focus on diversifying your team, because there is strength in diversity. And there's a million reports that have proven that with flying colors, I'm not going to cite them now, you know, go look for them. McKinsey has done a great job in that area. But you know, this is kind of the area where folks need to take their own career, you know, by the balls, for lack of a better term, and really make the people around them accountable for what they see is wrong, you know, you have to take responsibility for your own, you know, goals and direction, but you also have to hold other people accountable. And that's been a challenge, because what I have found in doing this work is that a lot of people feel unsafe in having those conversations, because they are afraid of the backlash, you know, they're afraid of putting their job at risk for speaking out about something that seems like racism, or seems unjust, or you know what I mean. And so creating that safe space is an instrumental objective for every organization so that their employees can flourish.

Peter Szczerba - The idea that somebody can't flag something, because they're at fear of potentially impacting their job security, right. And not being able to force the accountability on those who are, you know, demonstrating these clearly either racist behaviors or otherwise inappropriate behaviors, right. And, like, it's difficult for myself, right, as somebody who is a white male, and isn't faced with these things, right to even understand largely what that's like. And so this is, you know, having conversations with somebody that works in this space, like you and then and professionals who deal with this on a day to day basis. It's honestly, hugely enlightening to hear about these types of things. And I think what's great is just how you've kind of crafted that it's not just about the individual pushing harder and harder self advocacy and campaigning for their growth in an environment, especially where some of these circumstances we're talking about, like racism or other obstacles might be in place. But you mentioned that it's also about the environment and the culture and atmosphere changing. And I think that's really powerful. And organizations need to hear that. But also for the individuals perspective, I'm curious, what happens if, you know, they're campaigning hard to grow, they're making impact, they're trying to secure the advocacy, they need to make a case for promotion, or whatever the case might be, but the environment isn't changing around them, and they're not seeing a shift in the positive direction. What's your recommendation?

Daphne Magna - You know, it's not up to the company to build my own career, you know, it's, it's definitely up to the company to create the environment where I can thrive. But no one is holding you hostage, you have to go where you're valued. You have to shift, you know, you have to go somewhere else, where you can thrive and really move ahead, you know, that life is, is a beautiful thing that you need to create.

Peter Szczerba - And so what I love about that is I think in certain certain circumstances, it is that simple. And I like that sentiment, I think it's a powerful thing for people to hear. And the fact that you said it in a blunt way, I think makes it that much stronger of a takeaway for people to walk out of this conversation with so you know, this space that you've built your consulting career around it wholly driven by by passion and belief in the need to impact this human rights space and it being a driver for you. Can you talk about that as kind of this intrinsic driver for how you push forward to grow this business and grow your own career?

Daphne Magna - 100% I mean, as a Young, you know, as a child coming up in a growing up in a very diverse multicultural community being biracial, you know, this, this social conflict between black and white was my existence, you know, it was just a part of who I was. And having so many examples around me. You know, I, I jokingly cite the crew that I had as a young kid as like the United Nations. Because, you know, I grew up in a part of Scarborough, which is, you know, the Greater Toronto Area that was so diverse, that it was like, just beautifully diverse, you know, that one neighbors Greek, the other neighbors Estonian across the streets, Indonesian there's polish, Jamaican Trinidadian native Indian reserve on the corner by my elementary school, you know what I mean? Like, it was just an exceptional childhood from that perspective. Because not only was I in this kind of mishmash of cultures from around the world, but I was also in the middle of these different socio economic groups, because we had very, you know, very underprivileged, in the Kingston and Galloway road area, and then we had highly privileged in the guildwood. area, you know, and I have friends on both sides of the tracks, you know, and I, and I had fun, you know, immense fun getting in trouble with some of them, and, you know, but it shaped my ideas, from the perspective of I can see the gaps, they were glaring, you know, just glaring and so, for me, that's where the Human Rights kind of drive came from, was being able to see how certain individuals had certain privileges and others had none. Right, no, and how me being kind of in the middle, you know, I had a single mom, but she worked her butt off. And, you know, I had a very large extended family that that helped us. So, you know, I was looked at as privileged to the less privileged group. And to me, that was like a what, you know, it's just amazing, right? Like, I never considered myself like, I, I was blessed to have someone who loved me as dearly as my mother and sacrifice as much as she did, you know, but I definitely didn't consider that we were, you know, advantageous. And then in any regard, you know, financially, so that really led me to dig deeper into why those gaps existed, you know, why certain groups in particular seem to be the ones, you know, on the bottom, and other groups in particular, seem to be the ones on the top. And that just made me dig deeper.

Peter Szczerba - A common theme that comes up in these conversations is this idea of following the impact, right, and often passion is tied, I think that this is a perfect demonstration of that, like, you have a lived experience. And you you identified the need and the gap, and that there's something that there's an issue to be solved for here. And then that was the impact that you were following. And it became your passion area, and largely the rest of the career kind of it figures itself out. I think that this is, you know, just a great example of once again, following the impact, and then that flourishing into what has been a successful career in this space now, but also solving really meaningful problems in our society.

Daphne Magna - Yeah. And you know, it wasn't planned, right, I went into, don't get me wrong. I mean, the Human Rights piece was always a part of my DNA and my work from I mean, I remember singing, I was like, the lead face of a choir when I was 10 years old, that was saving the rouge Valley, you know what I mean? And we saved the rouge Valley from being infiltrated by you know, corporate condominiums or something, something of the sort, right. So I mean, that kind of work was was already always a part of my life. But when I got into university, and I, you know, my intention was to get into international law for that exact reason I wanted to solve these human rights issues from from a legal perspective. But then I realized how broken our systems were, you know, and how corrupt frankly, the the legal systems are across the globe. And I really didn't see the avenue aligning with my values because I had to really dig deep and acknowledge the fact that The systems that exist are not really meant for our progress, you know, they are really meant to maintain the status quo. And those that are that are really empower, set them up in a way that certain groups benefit and others don't. You know, so when I really dug deep and I got into my, you know, international law studies, and I studied, you know, political science across the globe, and and Matter of fact, even Women's Studies across the globe, and different things that that really helped me see that for me, and the sort of forward thinking progressive thinker that I am, didn't fit that trajectory of law. That was, to me at the time, very confining. Right. So as a result, that's why you know, what my path was, was windy, you know, it started in education. And, you know, I feel still I'm an educator, it's what I do. It just moved from young people to adults, and now, corporate teams right

Peter Szczerba - I find that very interesting. And, I mean, it's funny to say that it's still you're still an educator, and it's like, we've largely everybody should never stop learning, right, in the same way that you can't impart some of the things that you've learned on others, right. So I find that an interesting way to continue to frame yourself. And this idea of a windy path. There's also, I think, a shared experience with a lot of folks. But I think that this, you know, you were building towards through formal education of very clear direction, and then pivoting away from that, and having to evaluate that something was not consistent with the values that you were, that you intrinsically had, and that you were trying to cultivate moving forward. That's like a big decision to make, I think that takes bravery to, you know, acknowledge that within yourself. And, you know, I think in our conversations prior to sitting down for this interview, this idea of having the confidence to move different, right, and it seems like it started rather early, in you kind of your journey, and I'm curious how that continued throughout the rest of it?

Daphne Magna - No, definitely I was, I was always very creative. You know, I remember JS writing poetry books as a kid. And, you know, I was always an artist of some sort, I was either drawing or creative writing or performing. And as a result of that, I became an artist who performed, you know, hip hop music for quite some many years. And that really gave me a voice, it gave me confidence to tackle things that were uncomfortable. And the and the confidence to just show up, you know, because when I was doing my thing, you know, there weren't a lot of female MCs that especially not that looked like me, you know, or that had my kind of background or history. You know, I was also an athlete, dedicated, dedicated athlete, and I learned so much from sport that position me in a way that I can, I could take those hits, you know, what I mean? I can, I can, I was willing to be vulnerable, and still come out on top, because I knew the grit that I put in to get there. Right. So those, those two things really set me up for that, that just personal confidence to be able to be be who I wanted to be and go in the direction that everyone told me not to go in, you know, just oh, my God, you'd be, you know, oh, you you do so well as a translator or an interpreter in the government? Or, oh, yeah, you can totally develop policy. And, you know, like, every amazing idea that, you know, your guidance counselor and your uncle and your grandma had, you know what I mean, would try to sway me in the in the other direction, and I just stood firm, and I'm like, no, that's not me.

Peter Szczerba - I think that's super important. The knowing and being authentic and consistent with yourself in terms of following what it is that you want to do, I think is so important. And I'm really excited when everyone when anyone brings up anything to do with athletics or sport on this podcast is because I grew up with a singular passion that dominated everything else in the form of basketball. I played AAU all over it was such an important part of my identity and from a very early age help build up confidence in such a significant way. You know, I work a corporate job. Now, I'm not a professional basketball player. But guess what, I still play multiple times a week. And every time I do like coming home and then going to work the next day, no one even knows why I'm more confident or in a better mood that day. But it's because I had a great experience like playing well, and it builds resilience because you're overcoming adversity many, many times over and over in a condensed period of time, right? you're collaborating with people, but then there's also like personal excellence, right? And it's just pick up basketball, but it has a material impact on my ability to do my job the next day. Whether I was successful or not successful, I still I think Excel, I think, I think it's underrated. I don't think enough people talk about the fact that those types of like, diverse interest in like, participating in sport in general, I think has so many positive impacts on your ability to be a good professional life, like largely anything, I think, super transferable?

Daphne Magna - Totally. There's two things that you made me think of regarding sport and how it like, really, really impacted me. So one is that at 13, so basketball was one of my, my main sport, I'd say, I started in track and volleyball, and then I chose basketball, or maybe it chose me, I don't know. But I remember playing the first amazing sort of culture shock for me, was I remember playing basketball in Michigan. Yeah, I think it's Port Huron, Michigan. And I was, I don't know, 1314. And we're there in a tournament. And after that, we went to this mall in Detroit. There were two white people in the entire mall. The entire mall, the people that work there that were shopping were black. And I was blown away coming from Toronto, because at that time, yes, we had a vibrant Caribbean community. But the majority of folks in Toronto were white, right? And my mother's Italian. So I grew up with a white family, as well as a St. Lucian family. So I was very comfortable in both environments. But the shock of seeing a vibrant community, all black was the one of the turning points for me in understanding the difference between groups that are supported and supporting each other, because there was an affluent African American community in, you know, the Detroit area for some time. And so that led me to dig even deeper and start my love affair with travel, you know, and I had traveled even earlier than that, because I took full advantage of my family all around the globe. So I had been to St. Lucia and Italy, before I even got to high school, you know, but at that time, that was the moment that was like, I need to inspect the world more, you know, that just really, really lit my fire.

Peter Szczerba - I think it's such a critical thing for people to experience, both just from personal travel and professional travel, I think, you know, you can talk about it at a macro level and say, going to different parts of the world and seeing how people behave, how they interact, how they speak. And like the experiencing culture is an eye opening and perspective changing thing. But it's also as simple as like going to a different office within the same company that may be in a different state, or, you know, a different city can have a drastically different feel vibe of way of working right communicating. And I think when you get down to a microwave level, and recognize that there's big enough differences, that you can acknowledge them in such small distances, that having both sides of the coin have the kind of travel perspective, I think is an important one. What I find interesting in all of this is that you have a successful career that you've built on passion area, you focused on impact, you're, you have this diverse lived experience that helps inform the work that you do in driving successful diversity in organizations. And I wonder if you were to look back, let's say X number of years from now, 10 20 30 years from now, how would you look back? And what would the criteria be for you to call it all success?

Daphne Magna - That I still want to do it? You know, I think about the idea that from a cultural perspective, you know, we have such histories that we examine and we look and from an anthropology perspective to you know, we look at how we develop and and why and what pushed us in one direction or the other as a species or as a particular group, you know, and I look at what I'm doing right now and how I'm helping organizations kind of cut through the the fluffy nonsense and really just get to the bones as an integral part of actually changing the way we educate from young to old, because you said something at the beginning about the idea that, you know, education is a lifelong process. And to me, when you start learning as a young person, if you start on a false Foundation, your eye, who knows where you're gonna end up is really, to me look promising, you know. So the kind of work that I'm doing really, the goal at the end of the day, is to shift culture so much that people realize they have to pull down all the facades and start a new, you know, like, you cannot build a new, you know, shiny vehicle on a rusted foundation. Like, it's just not going to work. So that's my, you know, long term vision that really the, our education systems across the globe, are reformed to the max, because that's the foundation we need, we get older, but when we get older, our lessons compound, you know, so if what we learned back then, basically, let me say this in another way, if I'm 50. And I had the right lesson at 10. At 50, I'd be so much way further ahead, than if I was only getting the right lesson at 50 that I have to relearn all the stuff I learned at 10, or basically unlearn all the stuff I learned at 10. You know what I mean? So if we just better prepared our future generations with information and skills and tools that would push them so much further ahead. I, frankly, would be out of a job. That would be my ideal scenario. You know what I mean? Because, because we would be getting it so early, that we would have developed these cross cultural skills, we would have cultural intelligence would be, you know, being fostered from such a young age.

Peter Szczerba - I think what excites me is the way you articulated the fact that if that was the case, you wouldn't have a job today. Right? But But you do. And what you're doing is, is what you said, is shaking down the facades and tearing down facades and having to unlearn and then learn from a new. And it's, it's not about public statements around sensitivity or, you know, public statements about encouragement around these spaces or anything like that. It's about actually changing ways of working and enabling processes that allow for equitable progression and taking control of people's careers and the fact that that's what you're doing now to enable in the future folks, just having the right lesson from the beginning. Right. I think that's what's most powerful about all of this. And really one of the main reasons why I really wanted to have this conversation. And I am thankful for the fact that you were willing to take a moment to talk about your journey, but also just talk about this important topic and the work that you're doing. And, and so thank you,

Daphne Magna - You're welcome. It was my pleasure. I mean, there's there's a lot of work to be done. And though, you know, I wish we were learning it earlier. The fact that we're tackling it now is instrumental to that change happening, you know, because we those that are in positions of leadership, that can really change policies, and learn themselves, how to be better leaders, how to be more inclusive, why it matters, you know, why the false narratives are super destructive to our success as a whole. You know, and, and taking that, taking that into account when you're building businesses and, you know, really trying to be successful as a team is so important for just our future. Right. So, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.