OYP Episode 39: Kameshwari Rao

Kameshwari Rao, Global Chief People Officer at Publicis Sapient, tells us about the importance of extracting value out of every experience your career journey throws your way, the universal value of using data to tell your impact story, and how she found one of her most fulfilling life experiences through helping those in great need.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe, about how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too. I'm Peter Szczerba. And today, I'm very excited to be sitting down with Kameshwari Rao, who's the Global Chief People Officer, at Publicis Sapient. Kams, really excited to have you on the podcast today, I've been waiting to have this conversation. Why don't we jump right in? Do you mind taking us through your career journey up until this point?

Kameshwari Rao - Yeah, happy to share, it's a bit of a long journey. So let me see how I can actually, you know, tell it to you in a more succinct way. Because it's a journey of, I think, almost 30 years. So. So you know, I started with a job in finance, because that's what I actually qualified. I have an MBA in finance. So I work for MIT with a, you know, Share, share company, share trading company. So you know, I understand the ins and outs of actually how chairs get treated in the market and all of that. And so, I started there, but you know, then I took a career break for a few years, a couple of years when I had my kids. And that was an opportunity for me to actually get into sort of what we now call HR human resources. Right? The you know, and it was a little bit by accident, also, you know, and then a became a passion. So, you know, I actually didn't get a job in finance in Bangalore, while I lived at that time, so, because Momo was the hub. But I, you know, the person who I went to the headhunter said, you know, why don't you join me, and that's my journey, in sort of HR started with recruiting for a few years, you know, help set up the.com company for that. A bad organization, you know, grew that business from, I guess, you know, four or five recruiters to almost, you know, 50 recruiters, and that's big for, you know, for recruitment agency, came across sapient, at that time, you know, was trying to serve in Australia to help are kind of set up in Bangalore, or in India at that time. So, join sapient after that particular assignment, and then, you know, I guess the rest, as they say, is history. Now, I've spent about 20 years here at Sapient, I did recruitment for a few years, then moved into all the different functions within people's success, you know, whether it was performance, whether it was learning a little bit of GPC or you know, people processes and the technology side of things, then people strategy, and then, you know, I guess, the India lead from a people's strategy perspective, and then now to the global lead, right. So it's a, it's been a journey of growth, it's been a journey of learning. I've obviously, you know, had to learn the domain, because that's a really important part of the role. And, and then I have learned many other things during the course of this journey. One thing that I didn't say earlier was, you know, my little foray into direct marketing, which I think actually transformed me as a personality, and therefore, it's really important. It was a short stint of, I guess, 14 months. But you know, direct marketing teaches you a lot of things which I find I'm using every single day. So I think that in a nutshell, is my journey.

Peter Szczerba - In terms of your career, I'm really excited to dive into this because you've said some of my favorite words in terms of learning and growth. And I want to start at the beginning and touch a little bit on the fact that you, you had your MBA, you started out your career in finance, and then post taking a career break, as you said, to start a family, you then had a bit of a challenge finding a role in finance again, and you transition into to the HR space, but I'm curious, over the course of your career, has, you know, that background in finance at the corporate level and your MBA has that served as kind of a leg up in understanding how your organization's work and kind of let you be more successful in your role from a people success or human resources standpoint?

Kameshwari Rao - Oh, absolutely. And I think that's, that's a very good point you raise because, yeah, let me touch just on the, you know, the finance part of it. I think just having that background and having an understanding of how commercials work or how financial work, See our financials work has been really important in this role in people's success, especially as you become more senior, right? I think a lot of people think that, you know, HR is sort of very, you know, touchy feely a lot of intangible stuff. But I think as you grow in the domain and in the company, not just that, but you know, even in current times, unless you understand the commercials of how a business is run, you actually cannot run a function. So it's been a huge part of this, you know, I would say, better understanding, you know, helping the team understand better. How Actually, I have conversations with other teams, other other HQ teams, or even business teams for that matter. So, you know, I think that has been an advantage. You know, as I came into this role, in fact, you know, if I may extend your question further, everything that you do in life, right, whether you do it, whether it's education, or whether it's an experience, or whether it's just a chance encounter, everything that you do, always, you can always bring it back to your job, and the work that you do on a daily basis. And I've found that paying attention to those either micro moments, or even, you know, like, I talked about the 14 month marketing journey. You know, all of that actually plays a big role in your career in an everyday basis, as well as you know, on more strategic business as well. So I'd say it's really important to pay attention to those things.

Peter Szczerba - Absolutely. And I'm curious, did you have, you know, was it challenging for you? Confidence wise, as you were trying to, you know, get back into a full time role and not being able to find that finance role, how were you able to kind of overcome that challenge, and then go headfirst into a totally new area of business?

Kameshwari Rao - It was a challenge. I mean, I think there are two challenges actually, at that time. And I think it's important to, just to talk about it, because I know that many people go through it probably more women than men. But you know, when I, the reason why I had to switch the job, like I said, or, you know, shift my career or take a break was actually I started a family, I started a family, I also moved locations. So if you're familiar with India, you know, Mumbai was where I used to live, it's the commercial hub, getting a job in finance is not difficult. I moved to Bangalore, which at that time was a sort of, you know, what, you know, I could call a sleepy town, with no jobs in finance. It is way before the it boom, there were no jobs in finance. So it was pretty hard. You know, I made the I did the rounds, you know, with the recruiters I did the rounds of sending the resume, there were just no jobs available. And so it was quite tough. And then, you know, it was also after a baby. So you know, that in itself is also quite tough enough to make the transition from having, you know, not having to worry about this one more person that you have to not worry about, and you don't want it to seem like my life was a challenge. But I also had caregiving responsibilities at home for our senior people. So then all of that put together and then not getting a job, you almost felt like you needed a break to get out of the house. Right. Right. So that was tough. And I think it's, you know, I was saying this to some other folks this morning, to the summer interns. It's almost like, you know, who is your support system at that time? Right. And I think for me two things. You know, as I look back on that, that experience, two things stand out for me, one is, you know, your support system, ie the family at that point, because actually nobody else in Bangalore. So whether it was, you know, people who I was living with, it was a joint family. So there was, you know, different people that I could talk to. And I think just, I think for me, it was also about determination, it was about getting up every day, and saying, okay, send this resume to four more people are, you know, pick up the phone and talk to another hand? It's just a lot of back determination. It's not about not getting lost in the inertia. So I'd say those were the two things that for me were Yes. I mean, what happened then was, you know, I met somebody who said, Hey, you know what, you have a kid. Why don't you do something that will help in the education of your kid, and that's where the marketing jobs are. So yeah, it's just, it's just meeting people. It's just pushing myself to do things that I was not comfortable with before because I was you know, I'm an introvert, which you can never tell now, but This thing of you know, having to get up and go out every day to give you a resume was a very, very difficult thing. And I did the marketing job only to get over that. I was like, Okay, I do need to meet real people, because I'm getting like, super depressed. I'm sitting at home, saying, I don't know if that answered your question Peter.

Peter Szczerba - It absolutely did. And I really appreciate some of the things you touched on, because I think it doesn't come up enough in these conversations. But this idea of determination, because it's going to be hard. And whether it's in the situation that you've described, where you're trying to find a new role. And the determination is tied to that one more resume send or that one more phone call, as you mentioned, or if the termination is about pushing through obstacles and trying to serve a client or grow your business or whatever the case is, I think that determination is so necessary for kind of prolonged success across a career journey. And I think also this idea of you recognizing that stepping outside of your comfort zone, taking a role that maybe is not naturally a fit to you, or even something you want to pursue long term, but realizing the benefit and may have for your career growth in developing those skills. I think that's, you know, a really incredible thing to realize and make a decision around in the moment because I think often folks would probably steer away from, from something that would divert them from the career path they thought they were intending to go down. So I think that those two little tidbits as learnings are really valuable, I just want to make a comment to just in regards to, you know, you mentioning around how you were starting your family moving locations, and I can only imagine the type of character and confidence building experience that was just, you know, paralleling it to my experiences with my own partner and wife who, you know, we've had two children over the last couple of years. And she recently said something to me that you just triggered, which is, you know, over the last year, across COVID, I was pregnant, while raising a toddler and excelling at a job. I feel like I can do anything now. And I wonder if something like that resonates with you at all, because I was just in awe of this human that is my partner that I'm fortunate enough to call my partner, as I watched her, tackle all of this and be amazing at all of them.

Kameshwari Rao - Yeah. And I think that, I think is I think there, there are two things that happen. One is, you know, you recognize the depths of your own ability and capabilities, you and you recognize, you know, the resilience that you actually have, because, you know, you are taking care of not only your own emotional needs, but you're taking care of the emotional needs of the family, on the one hand, and then you know, you're putting in the work. Because, you know, everyone knows taking care of children. And you know, it's not just yeah, it's not just the physical needs of children, right? It's about the emotional needs, it's about how you want to bring them up. And it's not just being a toddler, so be to be ready for the next few years. Because, you know, what values? Are you giving them? You know, what's the quality time that you're spending with them? You know, what's the kind of stories you're telling them? And, you know, it's, you know, why is something you have to do? I think conscious thought is something that makes it a little more deliberate? And when you know, you make the right choices?

Peter Szczerba - Absolutely. You know, and kind of doing all of those things. So, yeah, I think I agree with that wholly, for certain. For me, it's made me far more empathetic and conscious of how I say things. When I say things, how I behave, I think it's a absolutely this huge learning from from having that parenting experience. I want to circle back now to your you've transitioned into the Human Resources space, you went from recruiting and growing a biz helping grow recruiting business, and then, you know, along comes sapient. And I think you're doing yourself a disservice by saying, you know, the rest is history type of thing across the next 20 years, but it's been enormous growth, I think anyone would look at your career and say, This is a successful career that I would aspire to mimic the trajectory of, you know, now sitting in a global role, global lead role of, you know, large, successful organization. But, you know, this, this conversation is a little bit different than a lot of the other ones I've had in that, you know, you've had an internal facing role, one where you're supporting our people as clients, and I'm curious, you know, as you've grown, as you've progressed, how were you quantifying your impact? How were you telling your impact story and, and, you know, you know, do you find that it's more difficult, less difficult to self advocate when you have an internal facing role. I really want to dive into this topic.

Kameshwari Rao - Yeah. It is more difficult. I mean, I think that I think the the normal Either normal accepted norms of talking about success, right, which could be revenue or which could be margin or you know, which could be growth in a time the rich could be, you know, you can actually see a solution, right. I mean, you can point to something and say, hey, that's something that we were a part of creating. I think all of that are, I think, more easier in, in on the client facing side. But, you know, I guess, I guess, you know, having that background, in both marketing and in finance, actually played a good role played a good part in being able to talk about the impact. As I look back again, you know, I think some, most of it is probably not very, I would say, not very deliberate in terms of how I would have thought about it. But you know, as I have left baton, I have reflected a lot of this, Peter, because I think, I think it's important, to your point earlier, right? Yes, I have grown, I joined as a senior associate. And now I'm, you know, I guess, a global people or global, Chief people officer, that's tremendous. Even if I say it now, I have now started to not feel uncomfortable about saying it. So, you know, I think that in my own in my own language I have brought in the change. But you know, if I look back on what, and how do you have taken some of those lessons from that background? So if you think about quantifying impact, impact, I think we started in talking about the effort. Oh, you know, it took us like six months to roll this out, or it takes, you know, eight people this much time to do something, or, you know, look at this particular process, or look at this particular policy, you know, we've done so much of market research, we've done the benchmarks, and that's how we know that this is, you know, top of the line, you know, thing that we've done, but we've actually shifted gears from effort to talking about the impact through the outcomes. So, you know, it's been more like metrics, right? Okay, you know, we shifted the metric from x to y. Or if we spend this much in our compensation, you know, this will lead to this much percentage reduction in acquisition, or this much increase in engagement. So the we are now depending a lot more, not depending on so we have, we started quoting and talking about metrics. Now, obviously, you probably see this a lot more in the past couple of years. But you know, it was happening in the larger, smaller teams that I was managing before. So I think changing the mindset on how you talk about data and metrics, and relating it back to the effort is something that you know, I've used in the past is one, the second thing is, you know, I think advocacy is what you're talking about, you know, I have become more comfortable with self-advocacy, like personal advocacy more recently, but advocacy for the team, is something that, you know, my marketing students actually gave me a good handle on is how do you talk about the work that the team has done? How do you talk about, you know, individuals on the team? How do you talk about sort of? What is it done for the person experiencing that process of policy? Right, I think so. Those are, those are more stories, and learning to tell a story has been a good part of advocacy for the team? I'd say. So, you know, definitely, I think it's really important to quantify because that's the language everyone understands. And I think, you know, helping the team quantify the outcomes, or, you know, talk about it more in terms of data and talk about it more in terms of trend, and talk about cause and effect, you know, all of these are ways in which you can actually quantify the impact for people facing though, because at the end of the day, you know, people are people are our most important group of people that create the impact for clients.

Peter Szczerba - Of course, Im particularly like excited about this answer, because obviously, I'm, I'm from a data background. So hearing that data and metrics have become core to communicating impact and measuring impact in even, you know, an internal people facing roles really exciting and it makes complete sense. But I love the way that you described marrying, yes, the quantifiable aspect of it in terms of, you know, decreasing attrition rates over time or lowering effort to deploy process or whatever the case may have been. But marrying that to telling the story about the resulting experience and feelings that people are having as a result of these outcomes that you've driven or probably As that you've changed, I think the marriage of those tell an incredible impact story. And I think that that transcends outside of just, you know, the internal HR space. But even if you are a client facing, you know, being able to marry the quantifiable impact with the kind of more qualitative or experience based on impact that you've had with with a client and kind of the relationship there, I think, is also a valuable way to do that. So I really like the way that you've described that. And obviously, you've done it with success, given given where your career has landed, I want to talk a little bit because I imagine that this has become a bigger and bigger part of your role as you kind of grew in your role and became more senior, but you spent 20 years at an organization across that 20 years, you know, the, the way that people work has changed, the type of work that is done has changed, people have changed and how they interact with each other have changed. But your role is critical to helping define the culture of this organization in regards to growth, as well as the processes that help facilitate individuals growth, and feel. Have them feel empowered to to be able to grow an organization. Can you talk a little bit about how have you approached the fact that you impact this culture? So significantly, especially now, where you know, you're at the head of what this culture is supposed to look like?

Kameshwari Rao - Yeah, I mean, you know, on somedays, it does feel overwhelming, even if, even if I say that, because, you know, you're right, I, you know, I do take that responsibility quite seriously. And, you know, it feels like, you know, I have to be ahead of how we may think about this. And I, you know, again, we've, we do a lot. So, when you think about culture, or you think about process, you think about you know, how we affect our own transformation within the organization, you know, what you said earlier, you know, all makes an impact, right, you know, what's going on externally in the environment? You know, so what is, what is the context, you know, we have become a far more closer company, we, you know, its, its, its global cultures, but you know, a lot more integrated, and sort of literally, you know, things that we, we now cannot actually do without, without the theme that we have. I think more recently, I, when I say recently, I mean, in the past five or seven years, we've been thinking a lot about generational differences, because, you know, we do know that there's, like, so many different generations, in fact, I'd say now that, you know, probably, like, close to 90% of our people are, what would be called Gen Generation X, and we are expecting more Gen Y people to come in. So we, you know, we did a lot of work and understanding what that means. What is their expectation, you know, what do they go for? What, so, then, you know, the now the, again, the more recent one is technology, I mean, everywhere you see, it's, every company is becoming a tech company, right? So how can, how can we, as an HR organization become a tech HR operation? Ie, then, you know, that translates into the company, becoming a tech, HR company, so to speak, right? Because it's full of people? How do you convert this customer journeys into actually employee journeys? Right, in? How do you have that conversation? Because these are alien concepts? Unless you've, you know, so understanding, literally the life, how agile works, you know, how do these, how are we actually creating these experiences for clients? And therefore, how can we do it for our people? I think the last one, you know, that I've been spending a lot of time thinking about is data, you know, so the kind of, and we spoke about it briefly before, but you know, last two years, you know, we've, we've, we used to have a quality team, and we talked about process efficiency before, but we've, like, you know, with the new, the new shift that we've done is we now have a tech team, within our people success function. And like tech, which is not just doing you know, HR is or stuff like that, it's like thinking about, okay, what's the future? What's the future of experience for our people? You know, how do we became a communication company versus just a, you know, information dissemination, dissemination type of thing, right, from an HR perspective? How do we use data to drive insights? How do you use data, predictive insights? So you know, you can see the shifts that we have to make. So I'm thinking of all of this usually ahead of many people, probably, we started talking about this, you know, actually, three years ago, on all of these generation was something we started talking about seven or eight years ago. So I think we have to be anyone who leads a function, whether it's any internal function has to be thinking very much ahead and listening to you know, types of things. Instead of going on outside, that's probably the only way that actually you can actually shift when the organization is ready for it, right, because a lot of this or companies we are an organization is not ready for it, either our people are not ready for it, because they change comes slowly to the organization. So these are the kinds of things that, you know, have helped, I guess, had me personally keep abreast, and actually ahead of the changes that are likely to take place.

Peter Szczerba - And, you know, speaking of change over the last year and a half, I think the whole world has had some, you know, incredibly accelerated change this, but yeah, and to your point in regards to technology, how we work as a result of COVID. And, you know, as you've been sitting at the helm of our people organization, during this time, it's been an incredibly challenging time to manage, especially, you know, something I want to touch on and hear a little bit about, over the last couple of months where, you know, you sit in India, and there was a huge resurgence of the COVID virus over the last couple months, it was a really challenging time, but you did some incredible things and led some incredible initiatives to support our people, people outside of our organization, I want to touch on that a little bit. Because in terms of empowering people to own their potential by, you know, ensuring their health and safety and well being, I don't think there's a more powerful way of supporting people in owning your potential than that. And I'd love to hear about that, because I think it's important to talk about

Kameshwari Rao - Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, it's been probably two weeks since I've taken a breath from that. And, you know, sort of moved attention to other things. But you're right, with, I think the, you know, the experience of two months is something that I will never forget, you know, it's not just a work experience, it's a lifetime experience, I think. But if you shift the focus to what we've had to do, right, I mean, we kind of keep it quite a scope is too vast, but let me just keep it to the scope of the team, the teams that have been involved. Right, so we had to literally, you know, we came to know, on a Friday that everything sort of just taken a turn for the worse and how, and then, you know, we had to respond on Monday to you know, sort of things that we have never, never had an experience of. So, whether it was, you know, trying to figure out which hospital to send our people to, to, you know, from where can we get oxygen? I mean, like, it was things I mean, I have never had these experiences, ever, I never had to think about it, because you know, okay, you know what, someone's sick, you tell them, oh, go talk to the insurance company, they'll recommend the hospital, you go there, you do some process, you know, the insurance company pays the person, right, that's that. We don't get involved in that. So you know, it's literally like that. So I would say, you know, the first shift, I would say, was actually becoming far more agile. So we, you know, there is, you know, and people's success, and you know, this feeder, because you worked with us for a bit. You know, our process takes time, to you know, design and test and implement and learn and change and all of that. We had no time. We were doing things on the fly literally, right? Today, we had a problem tomorrow we have a solution for we had a problem The day after we had a solution. We were designing processes, like literally, okay, if someone comes to us and ask for a bad bend, what do we do? Okay, let's put a team together. Okay, let's set up teams. Let's set up a community on teams. Okay, they need reals. Okay, so let's figure out which team in in and delivery can actually put an app together. You know, the app was developed in three days. Like, it was this kind of stuff. Like when I'm talking about agile it was as I love that proportion, right? It's like almost the turning everything on its head. The second thing, I would say that we had to make some quick, make some quick decisions on we decided to decentralize right earlier, as people success, you know, you wanted to have control, you want to make sure you know, we were doing the right thing. We were being fair, we were being equitable, which is the reason why a lot of processes and things get more decentralized or centralized. We had to decentralized we just said, okay, people just do what you have to do do the right thing, you know, the principles of it. And I think that's where our culture as a company came in, I would say, you know, came out in spades, right? Whether it was delivery teams are accountings, taking charge and saying, Hey, you know, I think we need to do this. This is the process I'm putting in place, you know, share this on the this forum, directors forum, hey, you know, somebody else wants to do this, just go and do it. Right. So we decentralized a lot of things, you know, both to our partners to resources to, you know, across our teams, you know, whether it was capacity teams with It was different regimes, whether it was people success, and also decentralization was a big shift that we made. And then in terms of focus, right, I mean, I think these are the times when we make some decisions. And, you know, I think the conversation with our leadership, including emissary with Nigel was ideal, this is going to be the only focus for this team in India to begin with, and then, you know, actually, the global teams just pitched him, he said, we are going to do nothing else, we are only going to focus on the health and safety of our people. And if that means, you know, I have created a volunteer team of 150 people, and they need rotation, and they need some way to figure out how to help the next person. So, you know, I'd say that, you know, just focus on just keeping the focus is important at times. And that, I think, was another thing that we probably, you know, did well, I'd say my role personally, was a lot of my team did a lot of when I say, my team, and here, you know, I'm talking about the COVID team, right? It's the COVID volunteers, the Warriors, whatever you call them, and they came from every walk of the company, right? It became one team, everybody together. You know, when I say, my team, in this instance, it means all of those people, my role, I think, was in helping facilitate in helping, you know, dismantling, just encounters, in escalating, you know, the group helped us significantly during this time, so knowing when to escalate, knowing when to leverage leadership, knowing when to leverage people in different regions, you know, we need an oxygen concentrator. So, you know, Hey, Mr. Vina, can you help us with that? Can you help us? In Singapore? You know, do you think this is available in Germany, like everybody, you know, knowing who to talk to knowing how to leverage people I think was something that I feel like I, I had a, I had a role to play there. And then, you know, I think more and more people sort of jump into that space. As a leader, I think it's important to understand when you can leverage and how you leverage. And you know, what we're talking about Peter is six weeks, eight weeks Max, all of this came together in the first week. And I, you know, I mean, now, I'd say, you know, the big focus that is a mental well being mental health, because this has taken a big toll, right? Every person in the office and anyone has any connection to India, even you may be in, you know, somebody in your team in India has less apparent or has less pain are, you know, someone who has less. So it's, it's taking a big toll in just being able to move forward. So, you know, our focus now is on actually healing, I guess, is, is probably the word that I would use. And helping them actually, you know, become more accepting, accepting of moving into the future. So. So, what does that mean? That means that, you know, again, the team that's involved, has to learn to how has now learned to have different kinds of conversations earlier, you might have had a conversation with the person leader saying, Hey, you know, how's this person doing? Know, how's their performance trending? And, you know, do you see potential? Is there capability? Now, the conversation is, Hey, have you talked to your team? Have you read? Have you seen somebody who is, you know, not maybe talking in meetings? Have you had the one on one conversation with the person? Have you talked about, you know, what might be going on in their family? Have you had a conversation about anxiety, and had a conversation about depression. So, you know, the conversation has changed. And that is what everyone has to learn. So lots of things, you know, as you can see here, that have changed, and I think has changed forever. You know, I think we have to, it remains to be seen the impact in the future, but I think they've become more human, become more caring. And, you know, we started focusing a lot more on the holistic well being of people than we have ever planned for that, because, you know, it's something that I was trying to drive for three years ago, talking about happiness of our people. So this is another way in which that has happened. So I don't know long answer. Peter, I feel pretty strongly about this stuff.

Peter Szczerba - Of course, It's a pretty important answer and you know, the sentiments you kind of touched on ready to end there's this idea of things changing, you know, a little bit for the better in terms of our view and Our kind of renewed focus on holistic well being, I think it just demonstrates this idea of finding beauty in the breakdown and and leveraging it as an opportunity to be better and do better forever. As you mentioned, I think that's a powerful word too, because it's fun. It's, you know, this is how we need to approach taking care of our people from now on. And I think that's important. So I think it's a really powerful example of how people can come together under, under the right leadership with, with our, with a people first mentality to create this sort of impact, I think, you know, comparatively for my my relatively short career, I one thing I've always been in admiration of, is when there's a new business opportunity or pitch or something like that. And you see people in cross functional teams come together, and the gears start to slowly turn. And as the urgency when the deadline comes, starts to come up, they start to spin faster. And all of a sudden, you see these beautiful presentations, andpilots or proofs of concept, come to life that are incredibly impressive, and I've always been impressed is how, you know, the teams can come together and mobilize to create something impactful. But what I've been just astonished by, and so glad to be the case over the last however many months is that the time when I've seen the our people come together the most effectively, the most quickly, the most urgently the most passionately, has been when it's been with the goal of helping other people in in dire need. And I think that's been a really beautiful thing to watch our organization do. And it's been super humbling to know that and to be part of an organization like this and witness this, and Kams, just a huge kudos to you for for finding a passion in this and driving it and forcing other leaders to contribute, you know, in what was essentially a global response to a region at need. And I think that this has been a really important thing to talk about, and I'm glad that we did and I think it's a great place to, to kind of end off the conversation. Kams thank you for your leadership. Thank you for your time and and appreciate you willing to share. Thank you.

Kameshwari Rao - Thanks so much, Peter for the time and you know, just the opportunity to talk about this stuff.