OYP Episode 24: Andrew Kirby

Andrew Kirby, General Manager at Apply Digital, tells us about how tactics for self-advocacy have had to adapt and evolve within our new remote working reality, and how important being purposeful and respectful of people's time is to finding success in self-advocacy.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe, how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too. Hi, I'm Peter Szczerba. Today I'm very excited to be speaking to Andrew Kirby, General Manager at Applied Digital Ltd. Andrew, really excited to have you on the podcast today. Let's just jump right in. Why don't you kick us off by taking us through your career journey so far.

Andrew Kirby - My name is Andrew Kirby and I'm the general manager of Applied Digital. We are a digital product consultancy about five years old, with offices in Canada in the US. Before Applied Digital, I started my career in the internet, just as it was about to be commercialized in the late 90s and worked as a digital Project Manager for an internet boutique. For several years, I then transferred to a larger global marketing agency and continued my profession within project management. I ended up managing a group of project managers in Vancouver, coming back to Toronto to run the global delivery practice, and then ended up managing the Toronto office. I then had an opportunity to join Sapient company I had long admired ever since I watched startup.com and joined as a VP Client Services, and had a really fruitful and satisfying time over the course of about four years.

Peter Szczerba - So Andrew, that's where our paths crossed. And you know, I often tell you, and then anyone else I can tell that you were one of my greatest mentors during your time at Publicis Sapient. And I would love to hear, you know, just given how strongly you supported me from an advocacy standpoint, how some of your thoughts around advocacy and self advocacy tactics have have changed, given the new remote working reality that we're in and how you think that we need to evolve our approach to successful brand building.

Andrew Kirby - Yeah, well, listen, it's, first of all, I want to thank you for the opportunity to do this. I'm very sort of honored to be asked to participate. And I really enjoyed this this question. Because it's so timely. I, as I reflect on the last several months of working within a pandemic, you realize that your traditional tactics for advocating for oneself no longer exists, there's no ad hoc discussions by the watercooler there are no casual lunches. There aren't even sort of the ability to pick up on a group's nonverbal cues in order to, you know, socialize with people. Certainly networking is a much more restricted practice. And really, you know, because the only, you know, viewport we have is a camera and a screen. The one sort of constant which rises up in terms of priority is time. And I think then self advocacy boils down to demonstrating respect for other people's time as a way to, you know, show who you are, to others. So, you know, I think it's about really sort of doing a lot of small things well, and, you know, one thing I've tried to do now, in order to sort of show people sort of what my intentions or needs are, are to be there when the cameras on be respectful of time, and when meeting start and finish. And perhaps most importantly, focus on being succinct. Because I think, for me, I've always sort of felt self advocacy as come not just in terms of talking about your accomplishments, but sort of demonstrating through actions and the quality of your work. And that's probably the best way for people to form positive impressions of you. So by investing energy in sort of thinking carefully about what you're saying, and how long and how much time you're taking in saying it, I think is a really effective way in communicating. You know, what you believe and what you hold to be important, and therefore, I think how people perceive you.

Peter Szczerba - I think that's a really interesting and poignant perspective because a lot of the comments we've heard about this Topic have focused more about how much more deliberate you have to be as a self advocate. But no one's really talked about the fact that you have to be respectful of the receiving person's time as you try and advocate for yourself. And I think that is super critical and probably goes, you know, not thought about enough. But I also wonder, Andrew, you know, given the leadership position that you're in, and that you have been in it for some time, you've been such a great advocate for others. Do you think that the importance of advocacy for for others has really grown in this new reality as well?

Andrew Kirby - It certainly has. I remember when I was working for Alyssa Altman, at Sapient, she introduced me to mentorship as a formal part of the job as well as sponsorship. And it's important to acknowledge that the two are quite different. And this idea of people who are a little further along in their careers, to consciously invest 10 15% of their week, on both mentoring and sponsorship of individuals, is a tremendous thing. And initially, I think you go into it feeling as if, you know, your wisdom and experience is going to help others. But what you don't realize is, you benefit more probably than the wisdom you're giving back. I think it's a great way to crystallize your listening skills, it's a great way to understand other people's perspective who are from other generations. And you realize, I think more how much more you as an individual can grow through those interactions. So I think it's harder now. Because we're in so many back to back meetings and time is such much more precious commodity, what I do is I just I haven't a reminder, in my reminders app, telling me to schedule, you know, 4, 15 minutes sessions a week with with people. And over the course of you know, a few months, I make my way through the list of the office. And that's how I'm dealing with it by by actively, consciously assigning myself that task.

Peter Szczerba  - Absolutely love that. Because I found that that sort of mentorship really helped me in as an individual, and I'm finding it super impactful. Now, on the flip side, as I have the opportunity to be a mentor for a small handful of people. And, you know, your comments really resonate with me there. And for me, when when you were one of my mentors, it really translated to career growth For me, I felt as I as I worked through some things, but I'd love to maybe hear a little bit how, you know, from a career growth standpoint, how Andrew, you describe your unique approach or mindset to that area. And I wonder if this approach is representative of who you are outside of work as well.

Andrew Kirby  - Yeah, this is the first time anyone's ever asked me this question. So it caused me a great deal of introspection, which I appreciate. Because I don't think I, I was that active necessarily in managing my career. But I, I do feel like I established some core tenants that I have tried to be true to over the course of my career. And I think for everyone, they're different. But I, I do recall early on in my career, developing these tenants and and one one was to stay true to the internet. There was something about the internet that appealed to my sense of self, I think it was because as a child, I was a voracious consumer of all science fiction novels. And the internet represented this great unknown, almost like space in terms of its limitless possibilities, and then more altruistically about what it could do to change the world. So I knew that I had to stay close to that I quit jobs, where I found myself on projects that move me away from software that wasn't connected to the Internet, and I'm glad I did that. The other tenant was early on in my career not yet having sort of identified project management as an area I knew I wanted to stay a strong generalist in order to learn and so early on my first job, my although when my official title was a project manager, I volunteered to be you know, the information architect, as well as the QA on projects back then the internet was more you know, rough and tumble and it was easier to move between roles, but that willingness to sort of experience lots of different things helped me crystallize on my career and knowing what they what I did want to focus on as a discipline. And, and probably the last thing, sort of core tenet was to learn how to sell. And my older brother suggested this to me, you know, and he, I remember him saying, you know, ultimately, Andrew, all roads lead to sales. And it wasn't necessarily becoming a salesperson, but understanding how to, you know, persuade, and influence and participate in the pitch process, which is, initially I felt quite, you know, I was not, you know, wanting to be a salesperson, I it scared me tremendously. And it was the feeling of failure, is the reason why I didn't like it. But it's interesting, you know, over the course of 20 years, I have grown to love selling, and I see it as a way to provide a ton of value to help people see solutions that make their life easier and more impactful. And it's a core skill for running any business.

Peter Szczerba - I find that particularly interesting, because I think that often people associate selling with very specific roles in organizations. But I think one thing that's always resonated with me is that, and I'm curious your opinion, you can contribute to selling, quote, unquote, in any role, right, and how you influence a client or an internal stakeholders thinking and help push them in the direction of what's best for their business. So do you have any advice for for people, maybe more junior career stages, who are trying to maybe develop that skill set, but don't really see a clear path to doing so?

Andrew Kirby - Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a great question. And it's true, you don't have to be in business development to be a salesperson, you can identify opportunity, and shape, the potential impact of that opportunity. at any level, you can sell by identifying stakeholders who you think are influential to decision making, and come up with action plans for how to convert them from neutrals to advocates of your brand, that's selling, and your ability to nurture those relationships, and identify opportunities are foundational skills for organic account growth. My job is, is going into an account where we have no business, looking around, identifying opportunity, building relationships, creating that proposal, convincing clients that makes sense, and closing the deal. And in order to do that I rely on people on the ground at all levels, to provide, you know, critical business information intelligence, and some of the junior folks do that exceptionally well, because we're aligned in our focus. So it's never too late to start that process.

Peter Szczerba  - Yeah, that's something that you always kind of helped me understand early on, and something that I definitely held on to in the years since. But I also want to circle back to one comment you made quickly about how you follow your your passion of the internet throughout your kind of turns and progressions in your career. And I'm, I mean, I think it's something that everyone aspires to is to have their work overlap with their passion, but I wonder if maybe any advice because fortunately, your your, your passionate and genuine interest in curiosity in the internet happened to also correlate with the trajectory of the internet becoming what it is, but what if someone's passion seems to be diverting away from where trends are going and, and they have to make that really tough decision about, Okay, maybe it's time to unhinge these two, and have these paths divert?

Andrew Kirby - Yeah, you know, I I? That's an interesting question. I actually didn't know what I was doing career wise, until the age of 30. So between 22 to 30, I was wandering. And I was an English teacher in Japan for five years of that period. Wow. I didn't know that. Yeah. And I realized at the end of it, I didn't want to be a teacher. I didn't have the patience for it. And that was a tough blow. And that that 10 year, wandering per period was very stressful. But I Ah, you know, so I think for those individuals, you know, who haven't been able to align their passion with their career, my advice would be, keep searching, because it's worth it right. Even if it takes you 10 years, you're gonna learn a ton of stuff along the way, my time in Japan was invaluable, I wouldn't trade it for the world because it accentuated my soft skills in empathizing with a foreign culture, you really need to put yourself in someone else's shoes in order just to learn how to speak and communicate. And those skills have served me very well in my career. So everything you're doing helps in the long run. But hold out and go back to that idea of, Okay, if you don't know, be a generalist, try different things, because I think it will hit you like a bolt of lightning. And it did for me, it just took me a really long time. So I would encourage people to do the same.

Peter Szczerba - I'd love to hear in your words, Andrew, what have you done to own or control, I guess the narrative around your personal brand and story throughout your career. And recently,

Andrew Kirby - Honestly, I don't feel like I've controlled it particularly well. And I think maybe that's the secret where you realize you can't control it, you know, the people will perceive you in the way they want to. And and the best you can do is just be consistent with your own values and let the brand unfold as it unfolds. So, you know, I, I can recall a period of my career where I failed considerably on a project is very late very over budget. And I ended up being the Fall Guy. For this this project. In this account, I came very close to quitting my company, because I felt like I was unfairly cast with the blame. And I took a hard look at the core tenants that I had been sort of trying to adhere to and realize that this was still the company that I wanted to remain at, and decided to do nothing to control the narrative. I just focused on the next opportunity and doing that well. And that ultimately was the right call. So, you know, sometimes I think, not owning it and not caring so much about it is also a good approach. Because you know, you are how your parents raised you those core values and focus on those things, and then your true self will come out anyways. And that's, that's really what you want. So it's kind of a weird answer to the question, but I guess at its core, it's just be yourself and don't really care about a brand.

Peter Szczerba - I think that's a really important message for people to hear and one for them to kind of wrap their heads around and really internalize and take to heart. But Andrew, I want to thank you again, for your time. This, as usual has been, you know, thought provoking, inspiring and I just really appreciate you taking a moment to talk to us and, you know, I look forward to our next chat.

Andrew Kirby - Thanks, buddy. Anything for you. Good luck. Really enjoyed it. Thank you