OYP Episode 16: Nigel Vaz

Nigel Vaz, CEO of Publicis Sapient, shares lessons for future leaders - including the importance of big-picture thinking, “learning to learn”, and how to command presence as a public speaker.

Interview

Ashley Snow - Welcome to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too. I'm Ashley Snow,

Peter Szczerba - I'm Peter Szczerba.

Ashley Snow - And this is Episode 16. With Nigel Vaz, focus on impact.

Ashley Snow - To get us kicked off, will you please introduce yourself and tell us about your professional development journey?

Nigel Vaz - Hey, my name is Nigel vas, I'm publicist, sapient CEO. And I guess my professional development journey was probably a mix of not realizing what people's expectations of me were, and what my expectations of myself were, and the fact that those two things weren't perfectly aligned. So what I mean by that is, when I started out my career, I had a much higher impression of myself, which was quickly knocked back by the by the job market at the time. And, and so I decided to start my own company.

Peter Szczerba - You've had a long career at publicist, sapient. And, you know, ultimately one that I think a lot of people would argue and is currently in a pretty great state of success. But along that career journey, did you find yourself playing a really active role in how that career progressed and developed? Or were there times where you weren't sure what the right next step was? How did you manage that.

Nigel Vaz - So one of the things I discovered kind of very early is that if you start to focus on thinking too much about a very planful way you want your career to develop, and you think about it in the context of the next title, the next role, the next set of compensation milestones that you might want to reach, it gets you in a particular direction, the thing that I discovered pretty early on, is that if you focus very much on where in the organization where in your life, you can actually have the most impact, and stay relentlessly focused on that, those other three things almost automatically, will come. But they come in a much more meaningful way. So rather than speaking metaphorically, let me give you a really simple example. You know, I was part of our business in New York, New York was the second largest office outside of Boston, or, you know, in Cambridge, where where the company was founded, it was pretty much the center of, you know, the universe for any New Yorker, like me, in general terms too, so aside from being professionally, very important to the company, it was also, you know, a great place to kind of be and when, when the opportunity came up to start sapiens, international business, a lot of people, including members that, you know, very senior level of the company were like, Look, you're essentially, you know, in a meaningful role, and one of our biggest businesses, this business is going to continue to grow and develop and be super important. Why do you want to take the flyer and go start something in London or outside the company, because you know, who knows how those businesses might actually develop, and if they develop at all, and we might just end up being an American company. And for me, when I was talking to our CEO, you know, he, our then CEO, and founder Sapient, Stewart Moore, I remember him saying, think about where you feel like you can have the biggest impact for the company. And for me, it was very obvious, the most impact I could have for the company was actually starting to build a business for us outside the US. And despite the fact that that put me further away from the center of influence. In the immediate term in the long term, it would have more meaningful benefits to my career, being the only executive who actually operator on both sides of the Atlantic and, and had done so successfully. And frankly, I feel like that's one of the reasons why I am in the job that I'm in now. So that just kind of gives you an example of I think, very candidly, this idea of impact. And how focusing on that is a different way to think about career development. As you continue to evolve your career over a period of time, because there were a lot of times I questioned whether that decision was good or bad. And every time course corrected around where's the most impact, even whilst doing you know, other jobs along the way before this one?

Ashley Snow - So Nigel, your career growth trajectory has clearly been exponential from building our footprint outside of the US and culminating in your ascension to CEO of PS. Was there ever a time in your professional development story where you found your career growth stagnating? And if so, what did you do to overcome it?

Nigel Vaz -  I absolutely did. And I looked to identify what I could actually do to have more impact than I was having and and in many cases, that meant, you know, thinking about lateral move sideways moves, I remember a period of time when I was basically running the international business, you know, the international business was growing very successfully, we were making a lot of progress in the markets. And I'd been doing that job for about four or five years. And I felt like, you know, our product and our strategy, you know, kind of needed to be reinvigorated. So I took on the Chief Strategy Officer role. And then, as I kind of developed our strategy with the basis of which became DBT, I was, you know, then, you know, really starting to see how do we actually translate the strategy into meaningful, visible progress, and I took on marketing and hired Teresa and then moved, you know, to work to reinvigorate our brand. And then eventually, we had a strong brand, we had a clear strategy, and we were articulating what DBT was, and the company was getting fired up about it, but we need to start to make investments in our capabilities. And I said, you know, doesn't matter, even though I, and by the way, to be clear, I was doing the same job I was doing, I was still running the international businesses, as my kind of day job, but then I stepped into, you know, trying to figure out how we could, you know, reinvigorate our capabilities, and I took on delivery and, you know, work to hire Tilak, into leading our engineering capability, and in reinvigorate how we thought about engineering from a strategic perspective, all the way through to execution and other things. And, and that idea was not to be clear, because I thought, hey, if I own all of these things, I will eventually become CEO, right? Because there was no obvious, you know, path there, because there was somebody who was actually, you know, pretty well established. And somebody I worked really well within that job. This was just me focusing on how I think I could create more impact for the company. But more specifically, if I think about a very, on a human level, I needed a new challenge to solve. And this created the opportunity for me to get that new challenge to solve.

Ashley Snow - Yeah, so repeatedly, you've stepped into ambiguity and uncertainty and you've been successful. Can you talk a little bit about the role that continuous learning on learning and relearning has played in your story?

Nigel Vaz - Those three words came from a conversation, I was having my 10 year old son A few years ago, when he was not 10, he was even younger. I remember saying to him, that what I really loved about his school, and the way he was learning to learn was they were teaching him how to learn, as opposed to focusing on teaching him stuff, because we were having a conversation about the British education system and the American education system and the school he goes to, and we're having this wide ranging conversation. And what was really interesting is his school was focusing at the time on building the frameworks and the tools for him to learn to learn, even though kids have an equivalent age in the British system knew a lot more stuff. And my point to him was, look, everything you know, is gonna become irrelevant. And then we start having a conversation about dinosaurs, which he liked a lot at the time. And we basically said, Look, even dinosaurs, they thought dinosaurs looked like this, they thought they had this kind of skin, they thought this was the biggest dinosaur. But as they keep discovering new stuff, that's gonna change. So what's important is not what you know about dinosaurs today, but that you have the ability to constantly learn about them. And so for me, if you apply this into a business context of, you know, everything is changing at an exponentially rapid pace. And the model that we were born into, frankly, you know, holdover from the industrial age, was you spend the first third of your life studying and depending on how well you do there, you spend the next third of your life, applying what you've learned in a job. And depending on how well you do the first, third, and the second third, you spend the last third of your life retiring, and living on the basis of how well you did the first two. And I feel like the world that we are moving into today is going to need you to learn the equivalent of a four year college degree every few years on a continuous iterative basis, because everything that they would have taught you is already become obsolete by the time you finished. Getting that degree and entering the workforce and everything you learn in the first few years of being in the workforce is actually going to become obsolete in the next four years in the next four years after that. So this idea of I was taught to do something but I now need to unlearn it, and I need to relearn something else means that we have to move ourselves towards being people in the mold of continuous learners. My feeling is this idea of moving from being a know it all to a learn at all, which is now me quoting Satya, I think, from from from one of his books, is actually you know, really, you know, as an idea pretty powerful. And I use the kind of words of you know, learn, unlearn and relearn, because you really have to unlearn stuff, even even for me the stuff that worked in one market a few years ago doesn't work when you have the same problem and a new market a few years later, firstly, because it's a new market. Secondly, because it's a few years later, and everything that did work then that you rely on you consciously have to teach yourself that just because that work, then it doesn't actually mean that works now and it's very hard to do and you know, we all struggle with it. I struggle with it because every instinct that you have has to be managed cajoled in the context of of that, you know, challenge, right? Because all your instincts are pointing to Let's try again the same way. And it's kind of like, Well, you know, it's not going to have the impact you want. So you got to unlearn that and figure out a new way of how to do something.

Peter Szczerba - Did you ever have really valuable mentors who helped steer that learning in a meaningful way for you? And kind of what role did that play in your trajectory?

Nigel Vaz - I sought mentorship from everybody and anybody I could find it. Right. So, you know, you know, you oftentimes think about mentors in the context of people who are older and wiser and more experienced than you, I have mentors that are younger than me and and who are much further behind in their careers on a typical trajectory scale, I also have, you know, and you whether you call them reverse mentors, or just, you know, mentors, we're kind of younger than you. And I also sought mentorship from people who I didn't necessarily know by reading and consuming everything that they were doing by analyzing and breaking down decisions that they were making. So for me, mentorship was one of those things that if you seek it, you can find it in almost every place. You know, I was quoting Satya earlier because I loved his book, hit refresh, which was all about the kind of inflight transformation of Microsoft. And there's like a book, you know, that was written while he was going through that process. He's not somebody, I've met him a few times, and I know him. But I wouldn't consider him a mentor in the typical sense of where we have a regular interaction where he's mentoring me in my career. But in studying that piece of text, and in looking at the Microsoft stock price, and looking at some of the decisions they made, and looking at the way in which those decisions came up, even if it was from an external perspective, it started to kind of shape and give me perspective on perhaps some things that, that I wanted to learn or reflect on or, or perhaps influenced choices that I might make. One thing that I've done that has worked for me was seek mentorship in any and every context. And don't be afraid to say, I don't know, and I'd love to ask you a few questions, or I love to learn or understand something.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, and that's interesting. But I also want to kind of prod a little bit on like, as you've, you know, benefited from having these mentors, whether in a formal or informal kind of parallel senses used to described, have you seen yourself as you progress in your career, getting better at recognizing opportunities to mentor others, or I guess even more specifically, advocate for others, when maybe they don't have advocates or they need championing and as a leader, how do you come to realize when something like that is needed?

Nigel Vaz - For me, when I think about my role in the context of how I have mentor other people, or how I have become more aware of, you know, other people needing mentorship, I'd say, my initial instinct when I was starting out was, people need to self advocate. Right, and if you don't self advocate, and if you don't put yourself out there, and if you don't put yourself in a situation where you are seeking that engagement, and that learning, you won't get it. But as I grown in my career, I've also started to realize that that idea of equality is is trumped often by the idea of equity, where there are people for various different reasons, not to mention the life experience that they've had, that fundamentally disadvantages them from that perspective of, of self advocacy. And I've sought to use people trying to make an impact, as a corollary to focus on how I could perhaps help them self advocate or perhaps mentor them. So where I've seen, you know, a genuine interest in somebody looking to try and create impact, but perhaps they might have not self advocated or, or not identified that they need to be mentored. I used that as the barometer for where I have chosen to engage with folks to start to help them either get a mentor that was not me or not even I would say a formal mentorship conversation, but just help them think through those, those conversations. Because for me, whether those were people on my team, whether those were people outside the company, or more broadly in the company, you know, I've seen a lot more of those situations where you realize either because it's the individual's personality or because their life experience or what have you, they didn't have that opportunity to develop the confidence to be self advocating in a way that, you know, would be seen for what it was, which is positive, to the extent that it was focused on you know, really creating impact for the company and for what we were collectively trying to do.

Ashley Snow - Nigel on the topic of mentorship, there's there's a lot that can be taught and there are several themes that repeat When we discuss this concept of owning your potential things like self advocacy, executive presence, brand building confidence, conflict resolution, communication, etc. When it comes to the next generation of leaders, are there any skills that you think are particularly important to develop or focus on?

Nigel Vaz - I think there's a couple things that are really important, right. And both of you are on the next generation leadership team. And when you saw the process that, you know, we engaged when we were seeking this, there were a couple of things that, you know, stick out in my mind, right. First is the genuine desire to have an impact. And you'll keep hearing me say this little focus on impact. It is the root cause of so much success that I've seen in myself, but also so many other leaders, how do you actually focus on making the biggest possible impact you can, irrespective of your role and your scope, or your actual job or your title, the second is being really thoughtful about how you not only deal with change in ambiguity in terms of you embracing that, but more importantly, helping others get to grips with change and ambiguity. And then the last one, I would say, is being really focused on how you can actually help make sense of whatever's in front of you. In the context of what we are trying to do as an organization, you know, you can focus on what's in front of you in the context of breaking rocks, or you can focus in terms of what's in front of you in the context of how breaking those rocks are going to help shape that Cathedral. It's essentially shaping that Cathedral for yourself and for others, to help them start to connect what they're doing every day with the kind of broader strategy. And I feel like those three things are things I definitely look at when I think about next generation of leaders, or people with high potential always comes down to those three things. Are they really focused on having a bigger impact outside of their day job? Are they really good at navigating change and ambiguity, but more importantly, helping lead other people through that? And then finally, can they actually get people excited about, focused on the vision of this cathedral to connect the everyday activity that that person does? Which might feel like rock breaking in service of that bigger idea?

Ashley Snow - Yeah, absolutely. At Publicis Sapient. We're all about helping businesses reimagine themselves anticipate what's next and helping our clients thrive in the face of constant change. And I love this idea that our business model also translates to our people that we too, are always trying to look around the corner of what's next and set ourselves and our teammates up for success in the future, and how that big picture thinking is reflected in our behaviors. I do have one specific follow up question related to skill building. Nigel, no one can deny the presence and the attention that you command when you're speaking to a group of people. Have you always been so comfortable with public speaking? And are there any lessons that you can share on how future leaders can improve this skill?

Nigel Vaz - I've been very fortunate that I've actually had the opportunity to like anything, do a lot of this. And as I've done more of it, I've kind of gotten better at it, no question about it. But the thing that always helped me get over my nerves, that thing that you know, which of course you still have, I remember the first day I did live TV, I remember the first day I spoke to an audience of more than 1000 people, I remember the first time I spoke to a different kind of audience than I was not used to speaking to when I was at the Goldman Sachs conference, speaking to investors, this is prior to the Publicis aquisition. And in every one of those situations, I can think of moments which essentially created the nerves and the concern. And the thing that I always relied on the one lesson that's always worked for me, is speak about what you believe in and what you know, it's as simple as that. I tend not to talk about anything that I don't know, and that I don't believe in. And that one statement has stood true for me, which then makes it very easy speaking with passion and with conviction and with substance behind what you're saying, because I feel like yeah, I'm on live TV. And sure, I could screw up. But you could actually ask me 10 levels of questions. And I could keep talking about this thing that I'm talking about, because I know what that well, and I believe in it. And I think those two things have almost always then helped me get into the flow of, okay, you're an investor, you're gonna come at this completely differently. But because I talk about our business, and I'm talking about the business that I understand really well and know intimately and deeply, you can ask me any question you want, I could probably talk to you about it. So then I tend to focus in on that. And the belief then comes from that, you know, that place of knowledge. And that's actually been very helpful for me. I would say if if I was talking about stuff that I wasn't as knowledgeable about the prep in that situation would have to be very different. Because I'm always amazed when I see politicians and you know, other people, you know, do these kind of U turn and I think that's a level of skill and mastery I've yet to achieve, right? Because they speak very passionately about this thing today. And then tomorrow, they speak very passionately about exactly, diametrically the opposite. And they reverse their position. So they're just good at speaking about anything with a certain level of authority and competence. I don't believe I quite have mastered that art yet.

Peter Szczerba - So Nigel, just as you you know, as you just talked about, making sure that your passion and your your knowledge on topics is communicated in the way that you speak. And that kind of enables you to to be articulate and a good public speaker, I'm curious, have you found that your passion has helped you navigate failure and kind of bounce back from failure and continue to grow? And I'm curious what your strategy to overcoming some of your greatest setbacks has been.

Nigel Vaz - So I think a couple things that have actually really helped me right. The first is acknowledging the fact that if you're trying to do something hard, you're actually going to fail. Many, many times, if not, your ambition, is probably not stretching you far enough. And I think that frame, when you set that context, to allow people to understand that what we're trying to do collectively as a company, or what they might be trying to do individually, is actually very hard, allows people to take the permission to stretch themselves further knowing full well that if they fail, as long as they're moving forward, they can take the learnings from that failure and press on. And so what's actually helped me historically is giving myself the permission to say where I'm trying to do, what we're trying to do is hard. And I do that even in this job today, you know, not every day and not every week, and not every quarter goes in the direction I want it to but but recognizing that what we're trying to do is incredibly hard. And then acknowledging that there are going to be some failures along the way, as long as it's moving us in the right direction. I think that creates some space to fail, take the learnings from it and then move on. But the one thing I will say is if you ask me one virtue, that helps me deal personally with failure is tenacity. And tenacity is one of those very under looked things I think in business success. Generally, I think when you listen to people, you know, talk about business success, generally, right? They always underestimate the role that tenacity plays in that. Because you know, tenacity, really, for me is something that is very, very critical in being able to pick yourself up and take that one step forward and put one foot in front of the other when the going gets really hard. Resilience and that tenacity makes a huge difference to your ability to cope, pick yourself up. And then you know, engage that learning mindset or engage with openness or be collaborative or focus on impact or you know, embrace the future. When I think about those values. They're really helpful behaviors, but they almost need a foundation underneath that of tenacity and resilience, especially when you're failing and things are hard.

Ashley Snow - Nigel inclosing, you've you've had an impressive two decades at PS and I know you aren't finished creating impact for our business and for our people yet, but I would love to know at the end of the day, how do you want to be remembered?

Nigel Vaz - You know, if this interview is kind of anything to go by, right, I'd love to be remembered as somebody that helped our company create more impact in the world for our clients, and strove to create more impact within our company through everything I did, over the course of leading it. So for me, you know, focusing on impact would probably be, you know, both for our clients and for ourselves, how I like to be remembered.

Ashley Snow - Nigel, thank you so much, again, for taking the time out of your busy schedule for this conversation. You are a consummate example of the impact and the legacy that can be created when you work hard and you keep an open mind and a learning mindset. I think I speak for both Peter and myself when I say that we feel lucky to be led by you at PS and to learn from you. So thank you.

Nigel Vaz - Thank you, Ashley. Thank you, Peter. I really enjoyed our conversation.