OYP Episode 15: Wendy Johansson

Wendy Johansson, Experience Design Leader, discusses some of the turning points in her professional career and shares her thoughts on humility and confidence in the workplace as an underrepresented minority.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control their career growth, and lessons on how you can too. I'm Peter Szczerba. And this is Episode 15, with Wendy Johansson, if I sounded like that, I would be a VP by now. Wendy, can you tell us a little bit about your professional journey?

Wendy Johansson - Absolutely. So my professional journey has actually been in all early stage startups and, you know, joining us first designer, first everything, making everything from websites to logos to marketing material, and diving into their growing teams, from one to 50 to 500. And at some point, I've co founded my own company, because I thought it was really fun. And I did that for six years travelled around the world created teams in Mexico and Southeast Asia. And that journey led me to Publicis Sapient, because when I really looked at sapient, it looked like my company, my startup in about 30 years. And I thought that was a really interesting challenge, as well as inheriting a team rather than just building things from scratch. So it's been a fun journey so far.

Peter Szczerba - And since joining Publicis Sapient, have you found that the similarities you saw from the outside remain within?

Wendy Johansson - Yeah, I think there's a, there's still a lot of similarities. But one of the first things that struck me at Publicis Sapient is how relieved I was that it was such a large global organization had a lot of the same problems that we did as a startup, because for me, it was very validating, like, wow, okay, we weren't doing things totally wrong, everyone has these problems. So for me, it was very eye opening and validating as well. But a lot of those challenges remain similar. And I think that's part of the fun is attacking them at different scales and different global accounts.

Peter Szczerba - I think that's really interesting, the idea of validation of the challenges you are seeing at a smaller scale at a global scale. And then I wonder if that has any reflection on maybe how you view your professional accomplishments prior to Publicis Sapient. And I think maybe you could tell us a little bit about a time that you've had to talk openly about your personal or professional accomplishments, and maybe why that was difficult, or maybe why it wasn't difficult for you.

Wendy Johansson - Talking about my professional accomplishments has changed through the years, you know, in the beginning, I would talk about the work I did, because I was you know, I was a UX designer. And then I was a UX manager. And it would be the work that me and my team delivered. And as I continued to grow my career, the story included more and more people, because at that point, I was leading teams, their accomplishments, you know, the work that each of those people personally put in, kind of contributed and led to the stories I was able to tell about the larger accomplishments I had. So it was interesting in changing the tone from Hey, I did these things, to know my team defeat things. And I enabled them. And I remember one of the hardest points for me early on, was I led a product for about nine months. And once we got it to market, you know, as kind of that product owner and UX lead on that I didn't get any credit for it. And everybody was saying, you know, Hey, good job, Peter. Great job, Ashley. And I remember feeling distinctly at the time just hurt like, Oh, wait, Wendy was there too. But also, at the same time, realizing, actually, this isn't about me, it's about my team. And I've enabled them to do this, and they should be getting all the credit. And for me, that was really a turning point in in how I talked about myself and my accomplishments was realizing was no longer about me. And that's very difficult for the first time as a first time team leader, as a first time team manager, to really separate your own ego from those accomplishments.

Peter Szczerba - So Wendy, your self advocacy tactics, they've really evolved more towards the advocacy for others. So I guess the question is, is what tips can you give to others who also are in positions where they should be advocating for others and what's important about the mentality, you need to have to do that successfully?

Wendy Johansson - I think it really starts with a mentality in advocating for others, you have to genuinely be doing it because you are proud of other people. There should be no subtext of you know, be proud of them, and then be proud of me. This is very much all about your people, and what they've done and what they've accomplished. And quite frankly, at some level of your career, you might not even be involved in their projects. Like I'm not involved. For example, with our teams today who work on various clients. I don't actually involve with those clients directly. But I'm incredibly proud when they deliver something and they're so proud of it and they can tell the you know, data driven story behind design. And so it really needs to genuinely be a place where you are happy For other people, and I think that's where it starts. And sometimes, you know, earlier, when you first become a manager or a leader, it can be difficult to find that genuine pride for other people, because you're still confused about what you've done, maybe it doesn't feel, you know, you're not so tangible, that you've delivered something a deck, or you know, a design or code. But you have to kind of find your place and find who and what you're proud of. And I think that's actually a good marker for, you know, a leader is, are you able to easily separate your own ego from the accomplishments of your people, and I'm genuinely excited for them.

Peter Szczerba - That's really interesting, because at some point in your career, whether you're kind of in that middle stage of leadership, or once you get into more senior levels of leadership, like you are right now, and ultimately, there are still discussions you have with whomever is your people, manager or leader, where you're still trying to quantify or kind of tell the story of your impact to justify your progression or continued progression. So if, if your success is defined by the success of your team and the people around you, what sort of strategy Do you have, and then structuring the story around your impact when you're advocating for yourself to continue your progression?

Wendy Johansson - That is so difficult, right? You don't measure yourself by other people. And that's, that's probably one basis of you know, your your own sense of self. But it, it can be difficult in a professional setting, when you don't know how to define or enumerate the value of what you've brought, of what you've done. And I think you need to take a look at two perspectives, what are the things that make you feel fulfilled, for me, I feel fulfilled when the people that I've worked with that I've mentored and coached are growing, whether that means taking a new role taking a new client doing something they haven't done before, or in some cases, even leaving the company and taking a role elsewhere, where they're very challenged, and they get to grow. I'm incredibly proud of them personally. And I would like to know them forever, and continue seeing that growth and hopefully, you know, be able to be an ear and and in a couple of useful words, here and there. But in how I talk to my people, managers about that. I think I've been lucky, I've had the type of people manager who's understood that I am a person who navigates well with ambiguity. And who is looking for the patterns and the signals of, hey, here are some new challenges that we need to solve for, you know, our team, for our people for operations for our strategy, as we move forward. And I've had the freedom to find and identify those problems and come up with new solutions for them. So I'm not measured by anything that's been dictated to me. And I think that's, that's a measure of what senior leadership looks like, when you're not in a sales or numbers facing role is that you have that freedom to define and find those problems. And honestly, as a leader, you should be able to identify those problems and solve them.

Peter Szczerba - Wendy I want to drill in a little bit and continue this idea of career growth? And ask, do you feel like you've been an active or passive participant in decisions being made about your career? Why or why not?

Wendy Johansson - Going back to the previous question, I feel I've been lucky a bit. And when people ask me like, oh, how did you get to where you are? I usually tell them, I didn't plan it. I didn't know this existed. I am in ever evolving industry and field user experience. And you know what, 20 ish years ago, when I started my career, they called me web designer. A couple years later, I got titles UI designer, and then a couple years later, they titled me, UX designer. A couple years later, I started calling my people, product designers. Our field in design continues to evolve. So I've never had the luxury of having an imagination of saying, you know, hey, this person, this is who I want to be, because it was so immature when I joined it that I had to just kind of go with where it evolved and the opportunities that were presented to me by the people that I worked with, who either saw something in me or just felt, yeah, we can give her something big and see what she does with it. And so in that way, I've been lucky with that. I think that's the thing though, when people look at it from the outside, it looks like it's shaped it looked like I shaped my path here and directly into being a GVP at Publicis Sapient. And No, I didn't. I don't think I even knew this company existed until about a year and a half ago. So there's so much that is happenstance. And part of it is making sure that you're keeping an eye on the industry and not just you know, getting siloed heads down in your clients in your project in your team in your region. But look at what's happening outside, you know, look, look at what's happening in your industry, not just with other agencies or consultancies, but look at What's happening in big tech look at what's happening in slow tech and and see how all these different kind of levels of maturity are evolving in those industries and what conversations are being had. I think it's all very kind of future thinking and happenstance where Yeah, later you can look back and you look like a very well planned person, but trust me, I am not.

Peter Szczerba - So I think that's really interesting, because it sounds like you were successful and being fluid and evolving, and branching out in your career as opportunities took shape and the industry around you evolved. But I guess I'm curious, Wendy, did you find that there were moments in your career where it was less of a fluid progression and seizing of new opportunity, but rather a pivot away from something that you're currently doing into something new entirely?

Wendy Johansson - I think a lot of folks here within Publicis Sapient are amazing creatives in their craft, I am not an amazing creative, or at least I don't think I am, maybe I am. But I started feeling actually back in 2009, I had this amazing design team. And I had thought to myself, I could spend 10, times the amount of time that they do in Photoshop, and I could never create something half as beautiful. And what I decided was, I should take my, my calling in basically moving things out of their way and enabling them to design to the user. And what I ended up doing back then was stepping into product management roles, and really kind of fending off and saying the best thing I can do as a UX manager for my people, is to take on the product and shape it with a user centric focus. And the only way to do that is to actually become that product owner and Product Manager. And so in doing that, I was able to kind of find this interesting new path, which makes me a weird shape of person that I don't know how to explain often to people is, you know, yes, I am a designer, I am a design leader. But I don't want to just make things because you tell me there's a problem. And here's a solution path, I want to go discover what that problem is, I want to validate that there's a market for that problem. I want to do a lot of things that quite frankly, look like they bump up against other capabilities. And that, for me has been kind of an interesting, different path. And quite frankly, a bit scary. Because at the time, I could look at other directors of design out in industry and say, yeah, that's probably the path I want to go. But what happens if I keep playing with this product thing? What happens if I keep moving in this direction? And I think the answer for what happened was, design became not enough for me anymore. And that's actually what led me to co found one of my own companies was I wanted more, I wanted to own more, I wanted to do more. And I wanted to learn more outside of just designing product.

Peter Szczerba - When for someone with such clear examples of success in their career, you're also extremely humble. What role do you think humility plays in the practice of self advocacy? And I guess, do you think humility is something that every person should try their best to exhibit?

Wendy Johansson - It's such a tough question as a woman and as a minority to answer that, because I think that's what keeps me humble, right, and keeps me grounded is you can say it's imposter syndrome. But you could also say, it's just sometimes I don't feel like the impacts been that great. Because, you know, I listen to male colleagues in industry who, who quantify themselves by the billions or millions, that they've either sold their companies for or that they've gotten as venture capital funding. So I live in a different world where the measures, it's this hedonic treadmill, right, it just never is enough in Silicon Valley. And I think that's, that keeps me honest and real. But I've never been in this place where my ego has gotten the best of me. Because the competition out here is so tough, I would say that's probably the best way to look at it for me. But in in how I've been able to kind of address that and advocating for myself, it's been a tough balance. Like there was a conversation that I had, I think, maybe a year and a half ago, before I joined Publicis Sapient I was talking to some other companies. And I remember that I had walked into a conversation with a company and one of their values, I believe, either was humility, humility, or, you know, being incredibly humble was one of their team values. And the feedback they gave me after the interview was, you come off so confident, that you almost seem arrogant, and that doesn't, that's not a fit for our values. And I remember shooting back at them at the time, like, you know, that is incredibly gendered response. Because if I was a white man, or just any man, I would have just been incredibly confident and successful and proven. But because I'm a woman, and I give up too confident, you think I'm arrogant. And you think that maybe I'm not humble enough to join your team. And I think there's there's exactly that that balance of being humble, of understanding that likely This is not your own personal and singular success. But people have worked with you to get there. But second is balancing that with, you know, how confident Can you sound, you know, as an underrepresented minority, or as a woman, or as somebody who's non gender binary and all these different ways of putting the same frame where sometimes I joke with, with my partner is he is white, and he is male. And some, I pass conversations through him. And he says, If I sounded like that, you know, I would be a VP by now. And when I sound like that, as a woman, I sound overconfident. So this is something that has stuck with me probably for an entire year and a half is trying to balance my tone to ensure I don't sound overconfident that it sounds like I'm arrogant. And I don't think that men think about that, because nobody's challenged them that way.

Peter Szczerba - We need to build off that. Do you think that some of that is changing in the cultures of organizations today? And if so, do you think is changing fast enough? And if not, what do you think the types of things that individuals can do to help maybe steer the culture of their organizations in that direction?

Wendy Johansson - I think that's changing for Publicis Sapient, I think there are moves across all the different programs we have running that, that challenge us to think about things differently. And a direct example is with the experience North America team, we have a small group working on the new interview kit that's very well defined. And through that interview kit, we actually have a de notation in the beginning that somebody in the team brought up that said, we have to be careful when we're interviewing designers, because, you know, marginalized people oftentimes use the WE instead of the I. And it can sound like maybe they didn't actually build things themselves in the project. But they tend to say we over I, whereas you know, you talk to a more standard type of person in industry, maybe they're male, maybe they have a certain, you know, education or pedigree, and they'll use the I over the we and we have to make sure that we don't have our interviewers, you know, unconsciously biased against the people who say, well, when we were working on that project, we did these things, versus when I worked on that project, I delivered these things. And so there are little moves throughout the organization throughout the different teams throughout the different activities and life cycles in our teams that are impacting on of how we're looking at this. And I think that's incredibly important. And everybody should have a say in that conversation like our our interview kit team right now. Sure, there's me as a GVP. But everybody else is a senior associate, maybe a manager who's putting this together. And I want to hear what it feels and sounds like from their perspective as we interview.

Peter Szczerba - Wendy, as always coming out of a conversation with you. I'm inspired and I hope our listeners are too. Thank you again very much for your time and I look forward to our next chat.

Wendy Johansson - All right, thanks.