OYP Episode 46: Hazel-Ann Mayers

Hazel-Ann Mayers, former Chief Business Ethics & Compliance Officer at CBS Corporation, Harvard Grad and current Adjunct Professor of Law at Fordham University School of Law, tells us about her inspiring legal career journey and how critical it is to have someone that can dream for you when you can't dream for yourself.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control their career growth, and lessons on how you can too. I'm Peter Szczerba, and today, I'm very excited to be sitting down with Hazel-Ann Mayers, the former Chief Business Ethics and Compliance Officer at CBS, Harvard Law grad, and current Adjunct Professor of Law at Fordham University School of Law. Hazel, I'm so excited to be sitting down with you today. You're so incredibly accomplished in your career, and also in such a unique moment in their career. But why don't we just jump right in? Do you mind telling us about your journey leading up until this point?

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Absolutely. Thank you, Peter. It's a pleasure to speak with you and by extension your audience. I am Hazel, I am a native New Yorker, born in Brooklyn, and raised for a couple of years in Barbados in the West Indies. So I am a first generation American. I am an attorney. I attended City College of New York for college, then attended Harvard Law School where I got my JD. After graduating from Harvard, I practice law in New York at two big law firms, the first being Willkie, Farr and Gallagher where I was a general commercial litigator. While I was practicing there, I became interested in labor and employment work, and moved over to Proskauer rose, where I did employment litigation exclusively, before moving in house to Viacom Inc. I started at Viacom as litigation counsel, took on compliance responsibilities, ultimately becoming the Chief Compliance Officer for CBS. I then had an interesting experience where I went off to do the Advanced Management Program at Harvard Business School, and spent eight weeks there, I look forward to talking to you some more about that as well as we get this experience. And I came back from HBS became General Counsel of Simon and Schuster, which is the publishing publishing company that is owned by CBS did that for three and a half years, and then was asked to return to CBS corporate to once again, handle compliance, this time as chief business ethics and compliance officer. And since then, I have the parted Viacom, CBS, which reemerged in December of 2019 had my third child, and I'm now teaching as an adjunct professor of law at Fordham University Law School here in New York.

Peter Szczerba - So I mean, just an absolute jab back career journey leading up until this point, and one that is just riddled with incredible achievements, whether it's Harvard Law, Harvard, executive Business School, you know, reaching executive leadership across a number of organizations, and then now transitioning for the time being at least into into teaching, which I have to imagine is a pretty big shift away from from sitting at the top of the ladder and in a corporate environment at the scale that you were, which I'm very curious to hear how your experiences is like as we kind of progress through the conversation. But let's circle back to the to the beginning, because I think your achievements start out right out of the gate. Harvard Law, I mean, what is the what is it for so many of the folks listening, myself included? I don't even know what goes into getting accepted into a place like Harvard. And then what is that feeling like? And then is the what was the experience like being there and ultimately, successfully graduating and pursuing a career in law out of it?

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Well, it was a fantastic experience, and one that has truly made a significant difference in my life. I always wanted to be a lawyer. I actually spent my summers in Brooklyn with my grandparents in their apartment, and would spend a lot of time watching the court shows that were then on television, including the People's Court. And at that time, the judge on the People's Court was Judge wapner, not judge Marilyn milyon as we know now. And through watching Judge wapner in action, I became interested in becoming a lawyer at the age of nine, I would always tell people that that was what I wanted to do. And so here in the States, you need to obviously get a bachelor's degree before you attend law school. That bachelor's degree doesn't have to be in anything specific. I actually also was interested in architecture because my father is an architect. And so I went to City College of New York because I got a full scholarship to attend the college and started off as an architecture major Wow, that was great preparation in terms of the discipline, and late nights that were necessary to complete the architecture studio and design classes. But I really didn't like it that much. And so I changed my major after two years to pre law. And I obtained my bachelor's degree in, in pre law fully anticipating that I was going to be going to law school right after I graduated from college. And I submitted a ton of applications. One day while I was going through that process, I was speaking to my dad about the schools that I had applied to. And he said to me, why haven't you applied to Harvard, are you? And I said, well, Dad, I'm not going to get in. I mean, it's so competitive. Yeah. And he said, Okay, well, if I'm going to write you a check for your applications, it's going to be either Harvard or Yale. And I chose Harvard. And I ended up getting in. And it was from that experience, that I took something very important that has carried me through my life, which is, it's very important to have people around you who can dream for you the dreams that you can't necessarily dream for yourself. And in that instance, it was my father's urging to apply to Harvard that resulted in my getting in, because if I had been left to my own choices, and decisions I would not have applied at all. And the experience at Harvard was absolutely amazing. It was very, very different from what I was used to being in New York, because I had gone to public high school in New York. And then of course, any college is a public university. I arrived at Harvard in a whole new world. Yeah, I'm filled with a lot of different experiences. But while I was there, I had the chance to meet a phenomenal group of people who were just amazing, super intelligent, at the top of brilliance in terms of research and, and knowledge about the law, fantastic professors, great colleagues, and friends. And also I had the opportunity to see wonderful speakers as they cross the Harvard campus. So I recall, seeing Nelson Mandela speak at the honors convocation that the university had for him, I got to meet Johnnie Cochran and Nita Hill, well, I had a ton of there were a ton of other people who pass through the Harvard halls, whether it was at the law school, or at some of the other schools that I had the opportunity to be exposed to. So it is an experience that I would not change for the world, it did take some getting used to initially, part of it was building up enough confidence in myself to know that I deserve to be there that I had earned the right and that I was just as smart as everybody else who had been on that trajectory. Since birth, I should say. There wasn't anything that was different in me, except my, you know, determination and focus and, and drive, obviously, to bring me to that point.

Peter Szczerba - Just a lot of things I want to dig into there. I mean, first of all, I just want to comment on the beautiful sentiment that you walked away from your experience with your dad kind of supporting your dream when when you couldn't see it. And I think you said, surrounding yourself with people around you that can help dream for you when you're not able to see the dreams, right. And I think that that, that is so important. And it's you know, I think it's very beautifully articulated there. But it's really, it's as simple as just having champions that are ready to go to bat for you and push you forward through experiences and careers to pursue things outside of your comfort zone. I think that is amazing that you had that. And now I've carried that through later into your career. There's a couple of other things I want to touch on. But going into architecture early on, you talked about the late nights doing, you know kind of the studio and design work. That type of creative flexing of your mind is very different. I'm sure that everything you did later on then especially studying law, did you find that it maybe gave you a bit of a unique, more unique approach to problem solving because you had to exercise some are developed some skills that were largely unrelated to what you ended up pursuing early on,

Hazel-Ann Mayers - I did find the skills actually to be transferable. Believe it or not, one would not anticipate that in designing structures or being being in a studio with other designers, students and presenting your work, for example in a critique right now that would translate into some of what I did in law school and ultimately do as a lawyer. But I think that it actually was very good preparation for what I ultimately ended up doing. There is the creativity that is called for being an in house lawyer, where you're not necessarily just there to provide legal advice to a client, you have to partner with your clients to come up with methodologies and ways to achieve the things that they want to achieve from a strategic perspective, right. And so some of those skills that you talked about me flexing right, while I was working on a specific architecture project, I think do indeed translate into into a legal environment. And I certainly had my fair share of late nights, being up working either alone or with other people collaborating on trying to get stuff done, whether it was getting a brief done, whether it was trying to get a document or an agreement finalized with clients, and negotiating to literally the 11th or 12th hour on all of that relates, I think, and is very complimentary. So I, while I was in the architecture, school experience, I wouldn't say that I was necessarily filled with passion. Because it wasn't necessarily my first love. But I think my father would certainly be smiling if he heard me describing how I managed to take some of that foundational development in those first two years of college and find the bright light and find the things that are comparable that I could take with me through the rest of my my career.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, I mean, that renders it resonates with me at times, my educational background is in science and business, you know, with a major in biochemistry. And I ended up in strategy and consulting data strategy. And it's like, how do those two things overlap? Well, I mean, certain analytical skill sets. And, you know, having an attention to detail and a foundation for being able to do things with mathematics, I think did translate, and I look back on it fondly, now, because it prepared me for some of the things I do, even though in the moment, you know, I was, every lab I stepped into, I was like, This isn't for me, why am I still doing this type of thing, right? So I love to hear that, in somebody as successful as yourself, you find the same things. And the same kind of skills we developed early on, delivering value to is so so many years later.

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Well, there also was a certain degree of courage that I had to muster in order, I made a decision to change my major, because it meant going against the master plan that I had developed, right for getting out of college in four years on a full scholarship. And I had to take a step back and be introspective and think about whether or not I was getting the type of joy that I really wanted to be experiencing in college by doing this architecture major, as opposed to maybe changing the plan and going into pre law. What does one do with a pre law degree, I suppose would have been the actual question, right? That was asked of me at that time. But that part of it for me, didn't really matter as much because I knew that I was going to be going to law school. So the fact that I was getting a degree in pre law meant that I had accomplished what I needed to accomplish in getting my bachelor's degree and I will be moving on. But I had I had to take coverages as some of my West Indian folks would say, and build up some energy in myself to motivate myself to do the research, and then also to be able to face my parents and say, Okay, thank you plans. I've been school paying a different, a different major. So it was very important to me not to extend my time in college by making that change. And so it meant that I had to take a full and heavy caseload class load, excuse me, for two years in order to be able to be done in the four years and I was able to accomplish that and to get out of school with with high honors, which Highest Honors, which I was very proud of.

Peter Szczerba - I love the way you speak to some, like the conviction that you had around knowing that you were going to go into law. So while you know objectively you might say what would you do with a pre law degree if you don't end up going into law, but if you know that there's no other option, it's what you're passionate about. It's what you want, especially from a young age of nine years old. You know, I think that you get a level that helps you build on that courage to make that decision. And I'm curious, you know, this is just a quick tangent to the next question, I really want to ask, but is it satisfying to know that from that early age, this is what you wanted to do. And then now you're, you've been doing it for so many years. And also I'd like the highest levels. Does that feel I have to imagine that feels good?

Hazel-Ann Mayers - It does feel good, it does feel good, I don't think about the part about doing it at the highest levels, per se. But I don't know what I would be doing if I wasn't being a lawyer. And one of the things that I love about having a law degree is that it provides you with the opportunity to do so many different things, right? The three years that you spend in law school, really shapes your mind and teaches you how to think and while you're going through the experience of law school, you don't necessarily appreciate that in the moment. But then something clicks, maybe six months or so after you've graduated from law school, and you realize, Hey, I really did learn how to think analytically and that I think, differently than other people do, which is a skill that you can use to translate into so many other things. So I certainly am not practicing law in the area that I anticipated that I would have been practicing in. Because when I obviously when I was nine, my decision to become a lawyer was based on this traditional litigation, courtroom context, right. And I did become a litigator. But I also thought, well, maybe I'll go into real estate law or zoning law and somehow combine that with architecture. And that didn't happen there. When I first went to Harvard, because I am a first generation American, I thought, okay, I'll do immigration law. And while I was in law school, I did the harboured immigration and refugee clinic, which is absolutely fantastic. I had the opportunity to to work on an asylum case for someone who was an abused woman from Brazil, who ultimately, she was able to obtain status here in the States, and to, to move away from the person who was abusing her and, and her child. And that was a fantastic experience that really dovetails with the vision that I have of using law to help people. But then I graduated, and I did so many other things. And I ended up in in corporate America in a way that I just never even anticipated because I didn't know that that was a possibility when I when I entered law school, right, so I say all of that to say that, that is one of the things that I truly marvel at and appreciate about having been able to accomplish this dream that I had, which is that I can now use my experience as a lawyer to do so many different things that I would never have anticipated.

Peter Szczerba - Absolutely. And I think that the way that you describe exploring these different potential avenues, but also, you know, not committing yourself to one in a way that closed the doors for opportunities that maybe you ended up actually pursuing and got you to where you are today. And having an open mind to kind of let your career flow organically a little bit. I think that's a really important thing to touch on. Because otherwise, maybe you would have went down a rabbit hole to pursue immigration law or, or maybe you would have stayed through the the architecture piece, but then you know, that butterfly effect, who knows where you ended up this, you know, in today, going down that kind of alternative timeline. But I think that that's really important, allowing, you know, to stray yourself to stray from the path a little bit and, and have the experiences or pursue some of the opportunities that may not be directly attached to, to kind of where you thought you were going. But they're still in line with the ultimate goal of being a lawyer, which I think ultimately is kind of what you did, if I'm understanding correctly.

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Absolutely, absolutely having an open mind is is critical. It's critical. For many of us as we navigate through our educational paths, right, we are on a track. We're where we're planning, we're organizing, I was very strategic and detailed in laying out this is what I need to do in order to be able to graduate from four years of college. This is what I need to do in order to apply to law school and to get into the law school. This is what I need to do to get out of law school and to get a good job. And once I did that, and I started practicing, I recommend My eyes that that that structure that I had applied to my educational growth, yes, parts of it, I could apply to my career and professional growth in terms of making sure that I was amassing skills that I should have been getting at the level that I was in a particular law firm or an in house environment. But I had to have an openness, right about the possibilities of trying different things. And as I recognize the things that I didn't necessarily like doing in law, having an open mind allowed me to find the things that I really did enjoy doing. And that's very, that's very important. I know, for my own self, and for my personality, I'm not the type of person who wants to do the same thing for an extended period of time, I like trying different things. And so having that open mind and allowing myself to step off of the proverbial path, right, has allowed me to try a lot of different things, and especially in the same organization to be able to do that has been has been phenomenal.

Peter Szczerba - I want to build on this line of thinking a little bit because you graduate from Harvard. And then you move into two large New York law firms where you did practice litigation, I think initially, you said in commercial law, and then into you explored labor law after that. So I'm curious, when you were at these firms, I personally, and maybe a lot of our audience also don't have a good sense of what is growth and progression look like, once you're a practicing lawyer, you're not a firm, I'm sure there's a track you're following. But like, how, like, you know, when I think about the technology field, I need to get certifications, I need to work with certain platforms and achieve certain business growth targets as I get into more senior leadership roles, etc. What does that look like as a lawyer? And how did you navigate that as you were trying to progress?

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Well, lawyers who entered law firms, as associates are typically on a partnership track. And you can imagine that that is an incredibly political and complicated and sometimes not transparent process, depending on the firm that you go to. Typically, depending on the economic environment, people tend to make partner, usually somewhere between eight and 10 years out of grad school, I'm not even sure at this point, if that's the same number of years in terms of the track, because if there's an economic downturn, that track may be extended, right? But usually, people are looking at becoming a partner. Now for some of us, for me, for example, as a woman of color, when I entered law firms, there were not many people who were in the partnership ranks who look like me, and quite frankly, there has been some improvement but not that much. And so I didn't enter a law firm thinking that I would become a partner, I entered the law firm thinking well, I'll I will get good experience, I'll have the opportunity to work on a different variety of matters. And then I'll figure out what it is that I want to do next. talking to people after leaving my law firms and going in house, I had mentors who said to me, I cannot believe that you did not think that partnership was a possibility for you, of course, you could have made partner and again to that point of having people who are dreaming bigger dreams for you. If I had had those conversations, maybe my career trajectory might have gone differently. I have friends who I went to law school with who are now partners in firms. But my decision to go in house was really dictated by the fact that I wanted the opportunity to work for the same set of clients, right, I wanted the opportunity to still be in an environment where I could grow. So at the time, I transitioned into Biocon, there were three litigators who were senior to me in the department. And I at that point was maybe about four or five years out of law school. So there were things that I still needed to learn. And those lawyers were willing to train me to teach me. And I figured initially, well, I'll do that for five years, and then figure out what next and so that's really how my career should directory took off once I was in house, but you do as a lawyer have to, especially if you're in a firm environment, be very conscious of your development and growth because you don't want to fall behind people who are in your same graduating class because you all kind of move together up the ladder. And if there are people in the class who are doing certain things that you haven't had the chance to do, you start to fall a little bit behind. And that impacts your chances of making partner. And ultimately, when you become partner, the whole point of being a partner is, you're now a part owner in your firm you are bringing in business clients will come to you because they see you as someone who is an experienced and skilled practitioner, right? To have that reputation, to embody that you have to have the skills right to back it up.

Peter Szczerba - I think that sounds incredibly competitive as well, right? As you say, this idea of this, this constant anxiety of let's say, falling behind the culture and kind of the work environment has to be drastically different than in a firm versus going in house where you just articulate to me you add three senior litigators to you that served more as your mentors and kind of showed you the path and helps you learn and develop and grow. In absence of, you know, looking over your shoulder at all times, or left and right to see, am I still on pace with everybody else, you know, that came in at the same time as me. I think that's really interesting. And I wonder, you know, you mentioned that it took until when you were leaving, or after you left for some of the senior leadership at your firm to say, of course, you were on track for partner, of course, that was on the table for you. What do you think is the big gap in the environments or cultures that maybe exists that law firms that where it's not clear to you when you look up, and maybe you don't see folks who look like you, but also you don't have any messaging or communication or signs to point to us that maybe you could be one of the people who change that? what needs to change in the environments to make that possible.

Hazel-Ann Mayers - But I think that what you've described is exactly what needs to change, right? You need to you need to have processes in place where people are, are truly sponsored, is more the term to use, right, where somebody is literally taking you under their wing and ensuring that you are being put on high profile matters, that you're being exposed to the leaders of the firm, that you are doing great and interesting and exciting and challenging work, right. And in many ways, I think that some law firms have evolved since I was an associate 20 years ago, they now have different personnel that didn't exist at the time that I was in, in law firms. Most all of these firms have chief diversity, inclusion and equity officers. They have chief people officers or the equivalent, they have people who are now focused on attorney development. But it is very difficult because law firms are expensive, they are a business at the end of the day, the firm is there to generate revenue. And a lot of what is happening in firms, to some extent, too, is driven by what happens in corporations, because corporations are the ones that are paying law for raise fees, and these rates on an hourly basis. So it really does behoove organizations. And I think you've seen that. And we've seen that in terms of corporations as well, looking to create change in what they see as the limitations of the law firm structure, right? And methodology to bring about change to ensure that there is there is really fostering and development of all attorneys and not just the ones who are connected or have the right relationships, and making sure that people are not just coming in the door. But they're actually being retained and being promoted into the higher levels of the law firms.

Peter Szczerba - I think that's awesome to hear that that shift is happening in firms as we know it, which reflects kind of the shifts happening and other organizations, as you said, across all industries, which I think is such a necessary step in the right direction. And so I want to now talk a little bit about the fact that, as you mentioned, you're now working as in house and you have folks who are helping you mentor and mentor you and grow you. But then you're not bringing in new clients. You're not assessed on kind of your billable hours that you would have been at a firm you obviously now have new success measures and KPI to assess, you know your performance. What does that look like as you talked about in house giving you the opportunity to be really a strategic partner to your organization and helping shape the strategy legally, legally from a legal perspective to help them achieve business objectives, which I think is really interesting to me, particularly as a consultant, you know, I do that from a data and marketing technology standpoint and, and digital ecosystem standpoint. And now you're doing something similar internally, but from a legal standpoint as a strategic partner. So what are your, you know, as an individual as you're trying to progress through an organization in house legal counsel? What What were your objectives that you were working towards achieving? And what were kind of the big things that helps you progress in your career as you achieve them?

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Well, it's interesting that you're asking me this question. Now, as I'm teaching a class on the role of General Counsel. So I've had, I've had the chance to give to give this some thought in terms of my own career. And also, what it is that we really are looking for senior in house lawyers to do for a business, right. So indeed, I mean, look, the goal is always when you're in House Counsel, to be mindful of the fact that you have to contribute and bring value to the business. Most times when people transition into an in house environment, as attorneys, there is a learning curve, you have to get used to having one set of clients and the cadence that comes from being a part of an organization, as opposed to being in a law firm, where you're brought in for a specific task. And that can be for a variety of different clients. On the in house side, you have one set of clients that you're always working with, to ensure that you are providing good legal advice, and also to help them achieve business objectives. But one of the things you always have to remember, as an in house attorney, is you're not the revenue generator of the company, you're you're actually part of the overhead expense for the organization, as opposed to being in a law firm, where the services that you provide are the revenue generating, or the entity. And that can sometimes translate into different differences and how legal and lawyers are treated and perceived in organizations. So as an in house attorney, you really want to be sure that in your company legal does have a seat at the decision making table, that you're not in some silo where you're only called upon to be reactive, and to come in to help clean up a mess, as opposed to be in an integrated part of the organization. And part of the strategy development and execution.

Peter Szczerba - Wow, I guess, you know, it's interesting that you say that, because my experience with legal departments of my clients, and maybe even internally, I don't know that I would describe it as what you're describing is like strategic partners very much they're brought in for approval and confirmation and, you know, bouncing off some new ideas strategically, or whatever the case was, but it not at the table from the get go. And I guess, is that if a fundamental shift that's been happening over the last recent while or is that always been kind of the aspiration of in house legal counsel to drive that change.

Hazel-Ann Mayers - It's certainly something that has transpired in the last, I would say probably 30 years, okay. And the reason for this shift is that as more laws have been created, and more regulation has come to bear on businesses, it's important to have in House Counsel present, and to have them be empowered to help a business navigate whatever issues may arise. And with law firm fees rising, most companies are looking at how they can more effectively address legal needs without having to continue to spend so much money on legal fees for outside lawyers. So we still do use outside counsel a lot because outside lawyers have expertise in a variety of different subjects. And depending on what company you're in, and what the issue is, you obviously will need experts probably fairly regularly to come in and give you advice or to handle it in mediation or to handle an acquisition or a merger or what or divestiture but on a day to day basis, you want to try to minimize the amount of money that you're spending on legal fees for external counsel. And so that has also increased the use of in House Counsel.

Peter Szczerba - Interesting. I'm curious, this is gonna seem like a silly question. But just as you describe having to use outside counsel still and, you know, I imagine the graduating classes of Harvard Law and it's competing Ivy League schools are not terribly big. So you're seeing a lot of same people that are maybe part of your network and throughout these various firms and organizations. I'm curious is there you know, I imagine there's an intense competition between schools like Harvard and Yale. So when you stumble across across an outside counsel, is it like it is in all media that depicts lawyers where, you know, there is immediate competition between you as a Harvard lawyer and somebody else's like a Yale Princeton lawyers? Is that not real?

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Not Not at all? Not Not in my experience. You don't even Well, in certain environments. You don't even know where people have gone to school. Right? I mean, yes, the big law firms tend to source lawyers from the same set of schools. Sure. And there is part of part of the push to ensure that there is diversity and inclusion is also diversifying the schools from rich places recruit I mean, I had a couple of years ago, the opportunity to see Judge Sotomayor and judge, Justice Sotomayor and justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg speak at the New York City Bar Association. And this was one of the questions that Justice Sotomayor spoke to, which is how critical it is to increase diversity in the legal profession. And she pointed to the Supreme Court and said, the justices on this court have primarily been from the east coast, have primarily been from all of the same schools have primarily been people who have practice in the same sort of environments, and maybe come up through the judiciary, but they hadn't had a specialist in in, for example, the criminal legal jurist, you know, in a number of years, and she spoke to some of the areas that would it would be helpful to have somebody who was an expert in that area who was off the beaten path of where they typically end up sourcing supreme court justices from, and you can take that and analogize it to law firms and to in house law departments, it's very important in order to have a diversity of thought and to have diversity of process to have people who come from a variety of different places. And so, you know, yes, there is an allegiance in terms of Okay, well, you know, this person went to law school or went to the same law school that you went to, but it's not really certainly in my in house career, I didn't encounter Oh, the any sort of competitive spirit thinking. Amongst amongst people, there may be people who are elitist. Yeah. But it wasn't a competition.

Peter Szczerba - That's very interesting, I think, because you know, the jet the mass of the general public, that's the primary exposure to what the legal world looks like. So it's just interesting to debunk that myth. And so I want to go back to something we mentioned at the top of the conversation we would talk about, you later went back to Harvard, though, as part of the eight week program, and it was a pretty formative experience. I want to hear a little bit more about that.

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Yes, yes. So speaking, so again, returning to sponsors, and to people who dream for you. My then General Counsel said to me, what do you want to do with your career? What what path Do you want to take and we had an an open and frank discussion about what it was that I wanted to do similar to what we were discussing earlier about why I became a lawyer, etc, etc. And I ended up going to Harvard Business School and complete completing the Advanced Management Program, which was a program that the school has through its executive education arm, and you went to campus for eight weeks. You lived in on campus and in a dorm with your fellow students. There were about 170 of us from 42 or 43 different countries. Most of the people in the program were business leaders, they were not lawyers. So I think there may have been about seven or eight lawyers from across the world, but most of the folks were people who were C suite members and that could be CEO, COO, cmo, CFO, ca o all of the cxos. As some of them were about to go into that level in the C suite, some of them were exiting positions, and as part of their exit their companies had provided them with the opportunity to complete this program. We did the equivalent of about a third of the case studies that a B school student would do if they were pursuing an MBA program. And it covered a wide variety of subjects from leadership and operations, to negotiations to marketing, we studied world economies. We had speakers come in to talk to us from the Commandant of the Marine Corps to the former CEO of Xerox to the current CEO of Duke Energy. We had the former FBI Director Comey, a wide variety of folks came in to speak to us about their different experiences. And what was absolutely amazing about the program was the scope of it, particularly from the perspective of being exposed to so many different global leaders. And so what ultimately has happened is you become this cohort, I was an a&p 186. And so we have reunions every couple of years we had our first reunion was about a year after we finished the program in 2014, in Paris, we've since had reunions in Dubai, in New York, and in Bangkok. The next one was supposed to have been last year in Athens, but because of the pandemic that's been postponed until until next year. And we also have this incredibly active network of people that we can consult about a variety of different issues, we have a whatsapp group, where about 90 of us communicate, fairly regular basis. And then we also have the broader ANP family that we can tap into. And so it has been an phenomenal, phenomenal experience for me. And I've maintained connections with so many different people across the world, it's it's always fascinating that whatever is going on in the world, from an economic perspective, our group ultimately has some sort of exchange about in this whatsapp group. And we're always up to speed on how, for example, what are people doing about the pandemic? Who's returning to work? What are the issues that people are facing about vaccines and mandates, and at any given time, there can be discourse about that to what's happening with the latest football match.

Peter Szczerba - Right? Right, right.

Hazel-Ann Mayers - So it's, it's a great, it's a great network and an opportunity that was absolutely amazing. I was so happy that I did it at the time I had, my oldest son was five, and my parents took him in for eight weeks and did his homework and took them to school so that mommy could go to go to Boston to do this. And I am very, very happy that that I had that chance and very grateful.

Peter Szczerba - It sounds like an unbelievable experience. And I think the first thing I want to say is that, you know, you single handedly have validated my the existence of this podcast for me, in that how you describe the diverse voices and experiences that came through as folk. That's exactly what you know, this serves for me personally, and I'm sure for some of the audiences. You know, at this point, we've had 40 plus conversations with people from diverse professional cultural backgrounds, right in different career stages, different roles. And it's just interesting to see all the transferable knowledge in spite of, you know, the different industries and places that these voices have come from. And hearing that that is the case, even at the most senior levels is extremely exciting for me. I think. The other thing that I want to comment on quickly is this idea that you have this group chat where you have world leaders typing in real time discussing, you know, global economic or pandemic related topics. You know, it's a very parallel behavior to let's say, how me and my colleagues may do that. The differences is that we're not making decisions on behalf of organizations that actually changed the course of some of this stuff. So it's just incredible to hear that something like that is existing and happening but in the same conversation might be talking about a football match. I think that that is I'm glad that There could be that dichotomy in the world. So I'm excited to hear about that. It sounds like an incredible experience. And, you know, I want to now pivot to like, where you are currently in your career stage, you took a step away from your most recent role, you had an opportunity to do that. And then and focus on your family for a while, and now you're in teaching. But are you looking for opportunities to get back into the corporate space as well? Or are you assessing what the perfect next role would be? I'm curious, you know, I don't get to catch individuals in your position that often with this sort of perfect timing, how are you evaluating their next role? What's your criteria?

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Well, I I definitely am looking for my next opportunity. One of the things that I always wanted to do was to try teaching. And so I've been blessed to have this opportunity to teach as an adjunct professor of law at Fordham law school. And so I do that once a week, and I have created this class called the role of General Counsel, Counselor, strategist and manager, which is it's been a wonderful experience, putting together the curriculum, but then also talking to the students about it and hearing from the next generation of leaders right about what their thinking is. So that's been refreshing for me. And a good transition because I did take a step away, I, my organization went through a re merger. So I had started with Viacom a it then separated into two separate public companies, I ended up on the CBS side, spent the rest of my time with CBS. And then Viacom and CBS merged back together in December of 2019. And at that time, I was expecting my third child. And I made a decision that I wanted to take some time off to focus on family because I had been with my two prior children, I was out for a couple months maternity leave, I mean, the second one I literally left gave birth 12 weeks later was back in my seat again, because I had just gotten thrown into my role at Simon and Schuster at the time, right. And so I wanted to do this one a little bit different. And of course, the universe would have it such that two weeks after I left CBS was when everything shut down for the pandemic. So I really did do this, this, this third pregnancy differently, giving birth during a pandemic. But it's been fantastic being home with my with my children, it's been great being able to pick them up and drop them off and to do homework with them and to sit without having to worry about email and being responsive to other needs. And being able to focus on on watching them all grow and blossom. And so I have have now returned to looking at becoming more actively engaged in finding a new position. And for me, fit is very, very important. Again, as a woman of color I have existed in environments where most people do not look like me. And there have been times in my career where I didn't feel as if my voice was valued, or that my perspective was appreciated the way that I wanted it to be. And it's very important for me in my next role to to have that be critical value and validated that I am valued for what I'm bringing in terms of my experience, but also my perspective. So that by definition means that there will be certain opportunities that are not for me, given the way certain organizations operate, and that's fine, but I'm happy to take the time to look for the next role that will really allow me to make a difference. And to do what I became a lawyer to do which was, which was to help people I think I've been lucky throughout my career to have clients and and fellow employees who have said to me, Hazel, you've treated us with respect, you've treated us fairly, I may not agree with what you're telling me, but I, I am 100% certain that you value me as an individual and that you are of the utmost integrity. And I want to be able to continue to do that in my career just in in a different, different context. So we'll see we'll see what that means. It's, as you said, it's about having an open mind. So that's definitely what I'm doing and I have had conversations about different opportunities and we'll continue to do so. And in the meantime, I am enjoying my time with with my students this semester, and we'll see what I teach next semester again, or if I take one semester off and teach next next fall. We'll see How that how that cadence goes as well?

Peter Szczerba - Well, I mean, more than anything, it sounds like you're enjoying the moment, which I think is is beautiful to hear. And I think what I love about what you said, it kind of makes me harking back to a conversation in a previous episode with a woman by the name of Daphne magma who is a management consultant focused on cultural transformation she talked about if the environment you are working in, is not supporting you, or valuing you or treating you equitably, in spite of your hardest efforts to change that, then you just have to leave that environment and find one that does. And while you know there are a number of circumstances that contributed to your decision to take the time off and focus on your family, and that was rather opportune timing, the reality is you have the opportunity to find the environment that does do all those things. And I think that's a really great position to be in. And so I just want to say I wish you the absolute best of luck finding that role. And if you'd be open to it, I would love to reengage with another episode. Once you do, I want to see how it's going. And if it's everything you would hoped it'd be, and just to see how teaching has gone in the time that that we kind of have as a gap between conversations. But all that said, I think this conversation has been incredible. I've learned a lot and I knew I would so I'm glad that we are able to sit down and have it I want to thank you so much for your time, Hazel. And again, best of luck with your search and as you kind of progress this semester with teaching.

Hazel-Ann Mayers - Thank you. Thank you very much, Peter. It's been it's been a pleasure.