OYP Episode 42: Michael Gorman

Michael Gorman, Talent Manager and the Founder of Straight Up Management, a Talent Management firm focused on guiding and growing the careers of LGBTQ+ and BIPOC artists. Michael tells us about finding real satisfaction in his career by staying true to his passion, submerging yourself in the scene of the industry you want to break into and the incredible value of sweat equity.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control their career growth and lessons on how you can too. I'm Peter Szczerba. And today, I'm very excited to be sitting down with Michael Gorman, who's a Talent Manager and founder of Straight Up Management, where he focuses on guiding the careers of underrepresented yet extraordinarily talented artists. Michael, very excited to have you on the podcast today, I've been looking forward to this conversation. As always, why don't we just jump right into it? Can you take us through your career journey up until this point?

Michael Gorman - So yeah, I am an artist manager, I started off when I was very young, you know, in my early 20s, looking at what I wanted to do with my life, you know, and I, I wondered, you know, what is it that I'm passionate about? What is it that I loved growing up as a kid? What is it that I still love To this day, and I found myself, you know, navigating myself towards music and the the arts and culture and entertainment and live performances and recorded music and, and so I thought, well, you know, I could go one of two ways I could follow my passion and, and work toward working in an industry, that industry or I could, you know, do something that my heart didn't, you know, love, which was, you know, working, go work in a bank or like for an insurance company or something, and I thought, Okay, well, what am I going to do? So I, you know, started looking into things I didn't know what a manager was, I didn't know what an agent was, I didn't know what a lawyer did for artists, I didn't know what a record label was. And I, I just dug in, and I and I kind of, you know, put myself in situations where I was in rooms with people who were working in that industry, I would go to new music nights. And because when you're at a new music night, you're going to meet artists, you're going to meet musicians, you're going to meet a&r people, you're going to meet other label people. And if you surround yourself with those people, there's a good chance you can, you can meet them, you can hopefully, you know, find work within that community. And so I that's what I did. So I start my first job, actually, I was an intern, I interned at a company called Chris Smith management. And you know, the big marquee client at the time, there was Nelly Furtado. And you know, I remember, you know, Chris, and the other executives at the, at the firm, you know, they would say, Hey, you know, Nellie is coming into the office, would you could you go downstairs and you know, sweep up their cigarette butts on the ground, can you sweep those up? Because, you know, she's coming in, and we don't want her to step over cigarette butts. And I thought, Wow, that's really weird. Okay, I'm gonna go as part of my job sweeping up cigarette butts on the sidewalk outside of the front door, and I thought, Okay, this is what artists management is okay. And then, you know, fast forward to a couple months later, and I'm at the office and there's a package and, and, you know, I was an intern, I was getting lunches, I was lighting incense, I was letting candles I was renting garbages as a mailing things out answering phones. And one day, a FedEx package arrived, and I opened it and it was for Nellie. And it was a Grammy It was her Grammy, her first ever Grammy. And I thought wow, I went from like sweeping up cigarette butts to open that contained a Grammy. And I thought, wow, like, if this is what artists management is, then sign me up, like, I need to do this, like, this is exactly what I want to do. It's not at all like that, whatsoever. There's nothing about that, that, that, you know, that is this job. But it just goes to show that, you know, there's so many, you know, things that you have to do in order to you know, work with an artist and so many components that need to be taken care of, you know, an artist manager starts from, you know, everything from sweeping up cigarette butts to negotiating the biggest deals from your artists, there's then there's everything in between. So that was sort of my first, my first foray into the music industry. And then I you know, so I worked there for a few I interned there for a few months and then they ended up hiring me because I saw kind of like a bit of a spark in my eye. They saw that I was driven and, and you know, really passionate for the for this kind of work. So I worked there for I probably worked there for about a year or so. And then and then I got a call from a law office that this the guy who ran the office was starting an independent record label, indie, indie label and and a management company. And so I went over there to work with Chris Taylor, who is now the president ceo of E one. Entertainment and North America global I believe and but at the time, I was doing day to day management for a lot of the indie rock bands that we worked with, you know, metric and Death from above 1979, Crystal Castles Mother, mother. And I. So I did that for a few, a few years. And that's how I sort of cut my teeth with the, you know, with dealing with artists dealing with like scheduling day to day stuff, everyday stuff, like, you know, that I had to do with those bands. And then so I did that for a few years, three or four years, and I worked for Chris, and his artists, and then a few, maybe three, four years, and then I, I went to another boutique management company, that manage artists that were more on major labels. So I worked with a lot with like, Atlantic Records, universal capital records, with artists assigned to those labels. And so I saw a different side of, you know, working with artists, so you weren't necessarily working with the indie rock and the indie rock stations, you're now working with pop artists and nchr artists and you know, more contemporary where there's a little bit more money because, you know, the broader the audience, the the chances are, there's more money. So I did that for a good 12 years. And then also, the majority of our revenue was brought in from life from live Toria live shows, corporate gigs, touring, you name it, and, and then March 2020 happened and, you know, like, most people, like a lot of people in our industry was completely decimated, you know, the live touring came to a complete halt. And, and I thought to myself, wow, okay, now what now what do we do I, you know, there's nothing really to work on. And, you know, so I, I was, you know, honestly, I was a bit stuck in a rut, to be honest with, like, what I was doing, and I wasn't feeling super inspired every day. And you know, I love my work. I'm very passionate for what I do. Life is so very short to not love what you do. And I felt like I was not loving what I was doing anymore. So I took the opportunity at the beginning of COVID. And I, you know, I thought to myself, and I started talking to a lot of people that I knew a lot of artists that I knew, I said, you know, if you ever want to reimagine your life for your art or your creativity, or, you know, you're like what you do for a job or who you date or how you dress or what you eat, now's the time to do it, we're never going to be given this gift of time ever again, to really kind of, you know, spin in a different direction if you want and think of different think of different career paths, life choices that you want to make. And I was telling all the different artists and stuff that I work with I said you know, if you want to go and do something else, go for it. Now's the time if you want to give up on this, go for it, you want to push through and go for it, then let's do it. And I thought well, here I am giving us amazing advice to all these people and I'm not really necessarily listening to it myself. And I thought okay, well, here I am having a little pep talk with myself being like, Okay, if you like you should do the same thing, you know, so I started a management company in 2020 for myself and for the artists that I work with, and a lot of people were kind of looking at me as to like, you know, what's next and so I started this company where I now focus mainly on artists and creators and public speakers and musicians songwriters who all kind of swim in the LGBTQ plus and bipoc communities so and that's what I do and that's my company's now straight up management straight up management is a is a company that was formed during COVID out of a need to have you know a need to continue to build my story and and you know I had a you know, I there's there's a bit the name came about by you know, I had a very young love affair in my head with Paula Abdul she was like one of my top I love my room was like covered with her everywhere posters everywhere and so you know, she's got a very famous song called straight up and I thought okay, well let's call it straight up management but then also it's like you think straight up you think okay, it's a bit of a play on the LGBTQ plus stuff and then you know, people and then also like straight up management the acronym is su M and then when you think of su m and c, think of the word some when you think of some you think of numbers and adding in money, who doesn't love money? You know, it's like a full it's a full package deal here.

Peter Szczerba - Man, there's so much to unpack here that I'm I'm excited to dive into the questions, but I really liked the way that the name you kind of articulate the way the name came together because it certainly has layers and the way that the different aspects of it work together make for something that I think sticks is memorable, but also has some depth to it, which I think is very cool. I think that's the type of thing that ensures longevity.

Michael Gorman - I'm trying I feel like it needs to be really authentic. You know, I'm not doing anything That doesn't feel right doesn't feel natural doesn't feel like it comes from my heart and doesn't feel like I still have that passion for what I do. And that I had when I was 1920 years old just starting out, if I don't have that passion today, then you I should just go give up and just go work at a bank. Right? It's not why the end, there's nothing wrong with working at a bank. We need banks, of course, that I was at a bank yesterday. You know, of course we need them. But that's not where my heart is. That's not where my passion lies.

Peter Szczerba - Absolutely. And I think that's an important thing to understand for yourself what your motivators are, and if passion is a major, major motivator for us, and maybe the typical profession or corporate jobs, not going to be the one and then you have to go through maybe a more atypical path, which is maybe you know how you could describe yours. But I want to go back to kind of the beginning really quickly, because you talked about the fact that you knew you wanted to be in the music industry, and you just wanted to do anything you could to be around people to be in the scene. And so you talk about spending a lot of time at music nights at different venues, just being around people, eventually you meet somebody. And I think that this is something that I've heard consistency all consistently, I'm a huge fan of, let's say, stand up comedy, right, huge fan. And anytime I hear any of these stand up comics that have made it today talk about what their early years were like, they just talked about being at comedy venues all the time, every night just listening, observing, trying to get on the mic whenever they could, it wasn't about making money, it's just about being around the space. And so I'm curious, is this something that's just widely known and consistent in kind of the media or kind of this type of industry? versus like, I don't know that there's an equivalent sure there's networking events and stuff like that for like, various professions, but not like this, where you could just surround yourself and dive into the world?

Michael Gorman - Yeah, you know, there was I'm very grateful for these spaces that people created to have, you know, new music nights, or even just, you know, open mics at comedy shows or even, you know, music. venues. Yeah, it's a little different. Now. I mean, now anyone can just dm somebody, right? Now someone can get ahold of anybody that they want to by just reaching out to them, you know, through their fingertips on their phone. That's so easy to do these days. But what you can't replace is human connection. Right? So being in a space like that, and like seeing people and seeing the same people over and over again. And then building relationships, friendships, you know, networking situations, like those are situations that you cannot, you know, replicate over a phone in your phone. So I definitely Yeah, those, the having the ability to connect with people in real life in person is the most valuable, was the most valuable asset for me in order to meet these people, because that's essentially what I did. And and I started seeing the same people. And they started seeing me, like, Who's that guy who's that guy, and I would go every Tuesday and go see new new artists, new bands play. And same with like, even like comedy shows, like I go to comedy shows all the time. And I'm starting to see I mean, pre COVID, I was seeing the same people over and over again, starting to meet some of the comics, and I'm really loving stand up comedy. And there's a lot of amazing stand up comedians, here actually in Toronto, that I didn't know about. And there's so many great comedy spaces and places to go see live comedy that I was doing a lot of right before COVID, it was a great way to spend a Tuesday evening in the middle of winter, you know, you're like eight bucks, you buy one beer, you sit there for, you know, an hour and a half and you're thoroughly entertained, maybe there's going to be some people that are not going to be great. But you sit you get through those, you know what I mean? It's like everything in life.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, and I and particularly with comedy, and this is going on a bit of a tangent, I find when you're in the space, it almost doesn't matter if then the you know, you there's peaks and valleys to the quality of the comedy, but you're, you're kind of submerged in it, you're almost more giggly than you would normally be. It's not like watching a special on Netflix at home where you're barely paying attention. So I love that that kind of environment. And yeah, and I think that makes total total sense. And and I love that it's something unique kind of to this industry, because it doesn't I don't think exists in other industries. But I think one thing that you described is relatively consistent is this idea of like internships, call offs when you're starting at the bottom, fresh out of school, or whatever the case is. And you did that. And I think that, you know, current kind of younger generations entering the workforce, they're very aggressively trying to move up, you know, get to the next level, get past that kind of grunt work at the beginning. But I feel like you know, the way you described it, you were willing to do anything right there just to be around the industry in this space.

Michael Gorman - Because at the time I was actually this is a very funny story that I've told a few people but at the time, I was actually working at a bank. So I had a bit of a taste for what I wanted to do with AI when I worked there and when I worked with the internship, and then I long story short, I had to leave there and go work in a bank for a few months. I was so frustrated by working there because like I said, I had a taste of what I wanted to do already. I was opening boxes that contain Grammys. And now here I was working at a bank again, I thought, oh my god. So one day on my lunch, I led them to very close to where I worked. I walked home for lunch, and I called my mom and I said, Mom, like, I can't do this. Like, I'm miserable here at the bank, like, you know, my I would wear like, my ties would be crooked, and my shirts would be wrinkled, that I would never wear my name tag. And they liked me at the bank, because I was good at my job, because I'm good at anything I put my mind to, I just hated it. So I called my mom one day, walking home for lunch. And I said, I can't do this anymore. I'm done. I got I can't just quit. And my mother gave me the worst advice that any, like any parent would ever give their kid. And she said, Don't quit your job until you have another job. And I thought no way. Like there's no way because we all know that looking for a job is a full time job. And I can't work, like finding a job while I'm working at this other bank. So I went back to the branch after after lunch, and I went to my branch manager Cindy one. And I was like, hey, Cindy, you know, thank you so much for this opportunity. I'm done. I can't work here anymore. So sorry. And she's like, obviously, she's like, we know you hate it. You know, she's like, you're good. But you know, and she said, Go pursue your career, go pursue your passion. And if you ever want to come back, the door's always open here. And I won't mention the bank. But you know, and, and then so I thought okay, but thank you so much. And then I want to say maybe five years later, after I ended up getting a job that kind of changed the past of my career, I went back to Cindy Wang and I said, Cindy, I need a mortgage now. And she's like, so it's like a full circle moments like the same person that I quit. I was like, screw this job, but also then gave me my mortgage years later, my first mortgage.

Peter Szczerba - That's very cool. That's such a cool thing to have experienced that to have someone who recognized and didn't kneel, chastise you for leaving the job and instead said, yeah, of course, go follow your passion. It's funny, I think in across a couple of conversations, where I've talked about what's the worst advice someone has given to you. It's come from parents, but they're, they're trying to focus on security, make sure you're safe and that kind of thing. But I think especially when you're younger in your career, you can have maybe a greater tolerance for risk in terms of financial stability, if you want to follow the passion going all the way in jumping with two feet headfirst type of thing, I think is what it takes, especially for industries that are harder to break into like this one.

Michael Gorman - Yeah, I knew that I was never going to be homeless. You know, I, I had a lot of great friends community, I was starting to build community within Isaac industry. I had my family. And I remember one day one of my friends, we were driving by a bus shelter, and there was homeless, it was raining and there was a bunch of homeless people in the bus shelter. And my friend said to me, oh, you know, Michael, where would you ever live? If you were like, what would you ever do? If you were homeless? I said, I wouldn't live at your house, like, what do you? What do you know, I knew I could take risks. You know, I had that confidence to be like, screw it. I'm just gonna jump with that a net, and we're gonna go for it.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's so important, especially when you're, especially when you're pursuing something that is so passion driven. So I mean, just going back to the internship, like, you know, you were almost learning through osmosis, because it's, it's one of those things where it's a humbling experience to, as you said, like, sweep up cigarette butts. And maybe that's not immediately transferable to later being in, you know, management further down in your career, but the fact that you're getting exposed to it, would you would you agree that like, just being an environment, seeing witnessing what folks in the role you wanted to have were doing was valuable in itself?

Michael Gorman - Well, yes, definitely. And definitely, you know, I had to put in the hours, I had to put in the Malcolm Gladwell hours, I had to put in the 10,000 hours in order to make this career go, and if that included, you know, having to sweep up cigarette butts or, and doing anything else, then, you know, I was willing to put in the work because that's where I saw my future. That's what I saw myself doing. And I knew that, you know, I, you know, you meet a lot of people these days, and I meet a lot of people who were in my situation when, you know, they were like, 2021 25 just starting their career, and, you know, expecting to kind of start sort of at the top, you know, I don't know if it's, like, really weird, but like, I'm seeing a lot of entitled younger people that think that they should just be getting the jobs that they want, and they should just be handed to them. And, and I laughed so hard, I'm like, okay, I love that you have that confidence in it, but you still need to be able to do the work. And, you know, I've worked with people like, you know, I work in a very youth driven industry. So I'm around a lot of younger people that want to get into the industry, or are there artists that want to start you know, break into the industry, and nobody wants to put in the work anymore? And I'm like, well, that's just not how it works. I know it's everything's so fast these days with like, social media and like, you know, back in back when I started out, like, if you wanted someone to have pay attention to your record, you would just send them a CD, and then that CD would sit on their desk for maybe two weeks three, maybe it would never get to their desk, maybe it would never get opened. You never would never know you would try nowadays. Like you can send someone a link in a second and you can tell if they've opened it. You can tell they've listened to it. There's everything so fast. So there's no, there's less of the, the thought process is less that you have to actually put in the work. It's just like, Well, what do you mean? I just contacted the person? Why don't I have this job now, that's not how it works. Sometimes you can get those jobs because you know, the right person, whatever. But if you don't have the work ethic and the ability to put in the time and the sweat equity, then you're never going to actually succeed.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, I think the sweat equity is going to count for a lot sooner or later. Right? Definitely there's, there's, there's an immediacy to the world today, that can certainly allow for some very quick accelerated growth at times. But those bursts, they don't last in perpetuity, right. And that's why equity is going to have to be grinded out at some point. And so I mean, jumping to when you actually moved into your kind of more, into later stages career, you were with Chris Smith, and you moved into kind of 12 years following Chris Taylor into his kind of agency, I want to talk a little bit about because this is not your typical corporate space in terms of like promotions and working against a goal or a target. And that next title, to maybe tell us a little bit about what what does that look like in the agency space? When you're trying to grow your career? Is it about securing new and better artists is about securing more revenue? Like what is? What is owning your potential or growth or progressing your career look like in the agency space? If you're not running your own agency?

Michael Gorman - Well, that's a really good question. And I'm trying to figure that out myself, right. Now, to be honest, you know, this is my first time kind of running my own business. So definitely, I have to focus on the artist because that's my first and foremost job is making sure that they're happy and active and working and making money and all these things. But also, at the same time, I have to simultaneously run a business. So I was like, okay, so and you know, to be quite frank, I'm, you know, I'm growing this business, it's going, you know, knock on wood, it's going well, all things considered, during the time that we're in when, again, a lot of my livelihood relies on people congregating in large spaces. And because that hasn't happened in a long time and a year and a half or more. You know, it's been a real challenge that we've had to pivot a little bit, but that's okay, we've managed and we're surviving, and we're doing just fine. But you know, and then I'm also looking at, okay, now I'm getting calls for people that are like, wanting to recruit me, for different companies and stuff. I'm like, Okay, well, now I'm faced with, okay, do I, do I go after this, like, executive role here? Or do I go after? Or do I really put my a, you know, where I could maybe have a bit more of a, like a cushy job and a good salary and all these benefits and perks and everything? Or do I continue to grow what I've already built and work so hard to build? You know, and then, you know, what feels better? For me what feels the most? Where I sleep the best at night? Do I want to go work for, you know, a bigger company and be recruited and have like this a different culture than I'm used to? Or do I, you know, continue to build this passionate thing that I've started for so long, and people are starting to pay attention. And, and so that's something that I'm faced with. And I talked to people about this all the time, and my business manager, and you know, I'm like, I don't know, I'm kind of stuck, but I'm just going with the flow right now.

Peter Szczerba - What does your heart say? Because it's a pretty interesting dilemma, to have to have, you know, executive level roles being put in front of us that obviously, you know, are still in the industry, you're still following your passion, but it's a fundamentally different path than growing the business yourself and scaling your business and achieving it and saying, like, this is what I did exclusively, like me, like, Where are you leaning? Like, how you evaluate.

Michael Gorman - Has to be determined to be honest, I don't know, I it's all kind of new to me. But what I really do, you know, I've worked like I said, I've worked so hard. And I you know, I'm now at a stage in my life and career where I'm keeping my own hours, I am choosing the clients that I want to work with exclusively, no one's telling me that I have to work this project, or this artist or this, you know, I'm doing what I what it is I want to do. And from an like I said, an honest place. So I don't know that it feels more natural to be like, you know, making my own money and doing my own thing and building my own company and brand. But like lots of money and like, and like benefits, and perks of having like a you know, a team and more of a corporate world also seems a bit appealing to me too. So I don't know, I'm still I'm still mulling it over it.

Peter Szczerba - I think it's a good problem to have to be honest with you. But when we when we last chatted, we talked a little bit about something that I found very interesting because I just don't think that a lot of people that are outside of this industry have a good sense of this. But the difference between for example manager versus label versus agent, can you go into that a little bit and kind of identify where where you sit in that spectrum and how those differ.

Michael Gorman - Sure. So you know, like I said, I didn't know the difference between or I mean, I didn't know what the different roles did right with labels and the booking agents and their lawyers and everything managers. So basically what I how I like to describe it is like you know, imagine like it's a wheel like a like a wheel on a bicycle or a car and in the middle The wheel, like the hub cap, if you will, is where the artists and the manager lie. So they stay really, really tight in the middle there, the foundation of the wheel, there were all the spokes meet in the middle. And the only way for that wheel to successfully turn is if a then artist and manager are super tight and have the most trust within one another. And the most communication and the most shared vision and they're in the middle. And all of the spokes are the different at the other aspects. So the record company, the lawyer, if you're working with art, like band, like if an artist has a band, you've got all the band members to deal with the insurance people to deal with like, merchandise, you name it every like Brandon brand. Brand Partners, there's so many different things that make that we'll go and turn and make a career and make money and and make that career move. So that's essentially what a manager does. A manager oversees every aspect of an artist's career. So if an artist wants to if an artist is a, you know, like, let's say they're a public speaker, and they want to maybe start going into like comedy and stuff, okay, like, what does that look like? Okay, how do we do that. So like I said, they need to be aligned to the artist of the manager in the middle in order for the whole operation to be successful.

Peter Szczerba - This I find so interesting, because it is and why I love having doing this podcast, because I'm speaking to you in a totally unrelated industry, maybe to what I do in consulting, right digital business transformation. But this concept, you just described this wheel where the manager and the artists sit at the center is so similar to something that we call let's say, for example, the people growth network so how the people that are involved in the my career growth, so my people manager, my capability, lead my account, or industry, vertical lead my staffing partner, and for anyone who works in consulting, these are gonna be very familiar terms. But all of these people play a role in facilitating your growth and development and progression your career, and it's the exact same concept. And that's why I love finding these transferable concepts, where it's like these things work in all different sorts of industries in programs, professions. And in describing that, I find that so cool, how closely related they are, I want to touch on something because, you know, this whole bar has called on your potential and really the business you are in, in helping in helping others own their potential and you've carved that out carved out this beautiful niche where you've, you're supporting underrepresented communities in terms of bipoc in LGBTQ plus, that's going to be a really fulfilling thing. Because, you know, yeah, you're trying to scale a business, but also you're helping people achieve their dreams, which is kind of the definition of owning your potential or helping others do so, you know, that's got to feel really good.

Michael Gorman  - Yeah, it does, you know, it's a, it's a, this business is all about relationships, right. So if you want to get in, like a lot of businesses, if you want to keep people happy, and if you want to keep them happy and working and creative, then you need to be that champion for the person that is the creator. Because, you know, if we don't, if I don't have healthy, you know, and I'm talking about physically and mentally, you know, people or driven people around me, I, I'm only I'm only as good as the artists are, you know what I mean? And, and I can't, if they're not, you know, my, this business relies pretty much on the mental and physical stability, and the drive of other people, if they don't have if we don't have that drive, or that, you know, if the artists don't have the drive or the mental capacity to move ahead and keep going and keep building, then I don't have much of a job either. So definitely, this job is about keeping people you know, helping them realize their potential is sometimes you can't see the potential in yourself until someone points it out in you. And, and and that's essentially part of my job as well as to keep people motivated and just keep going.

Peter Szczerba - Again, another like super transferable sentiment, I think any people manager out there has to listen to this and just think, yeah, this is absolutely transferable to any professional space when people reporting into their mental and physical well being which is become, I think, a greater focus over the last year and a half, two years, that's going to impact their ability to perform that impacts the company's ability to progress and perform I think it's, it's just a really important thing to understand whether you're you know, a manager in the artist space or whether you're just a leader of people, any corporate space. I think that's so important. I want to you know, kind of transition to just kind of a final thought here if if you know, looking if you were to go 20 years in the future and define what success for straight up management in your own career would look like you know, if for you to have feel proud and fulfilled by what you've achieved what what would that look like, what would you want straight up management to be remembered as are by

Michael Gorman - Well, first and foremost, I already do feel really proud of the work that I've done so far in this stage of my life and my career and the fact That, you know, I just went ahead and just started a business during probably the one of the most challenging times in most people's lives. Yeah, definitely, I feel very proud of that, you know, into the future, you know, I want to continue to build and I want to continue to, you know, help the help really help people realize their dreams and help people realize their, you know, their potential, and also grow a business and grow a business that feels really authentic and organic. And, you know, when I first started, you know, the job was sweeping up cigarette butts I that was my job sweeping up cigarette butts yet I would skip to work, I was so excited, I loved going and doing that. And I feel like I'm even though I'm working from home, I'm still in my brain, I'm skipping to work because I feel really great about what I'm doing. And I feel really fulfilled and, and, like I said, it comes from an honest place. So as long as I can continue to build this thing, and, you know, and, and make a living and not have to work for anybody else, and not have to, you know, work with people that I don't want to work with, then I feel fully fully satisfied. You know, when I first started working with my business manager, when he, when we, when I started this business, he said to me, is this $100,000 a year a company? Or is this a $5 million year a company? I thought, Oh, wow. Like, I've never been asked that before I never even thought of it. I don't know. You're just doing my job, you know, but it really helped me open my mind and expand my mind to this, the potential of this company and that someone sees that there is potential for me to grow this into a $5 million or more year, a year company and I thought okay, so maybe that's maybe that's the goal.

Peter Szczerba - And then I love hearing that this idea of whether actually physically skipping to work or doing it mentally Now, given our circumstances still, I think everyone needs to aspire to that and the moment that skip turns into a slumped slow stroll, then you got to start reevaluating your, your kind of your job if that's the case, if that's the case, absolutely. I absolutely love that. Listen, Michael, I this has been a fantastic conversation. I really hope that you'd be open and willing to reconnecting somewhere down the road just to see where things have gone with straight up management or maybe you're some senior executive at a bigger company, but either way I want to hear about it. Again, thank you for your time. This has been wonderful and I look forward to chatting again.

Michael Gorman - My pleasure. Thank you.