OYP Episode 35: Richard Penny

Richard Penny, Founder and CEO of Reactar Labs, creators of homeAR.io, tells us about the value of finding the seam where opportunity, ability and interest align in one’s career, and why evaluating one’s success through the lens of fulfilled potential is so empowering.

Interview

Peter Szczerba - Welcome back to the Own Your Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe that how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too. I'm Peter Szczerba. And today I have the extreme pleasure of sitting down with Richard Penny, who is the founder and CEO of Reactar Labs, who are the creators of homeAR.io. Richard, really excited to have you on the podcast today. I've been looking forward to having this conversation. Why don't we just kick it off with you taking us through your career journey up until this point.

Richard Penny - Thanks very much for having me. I've been looking forward to Yeah, as you mentioned, I'm founder and CEO of a company called Reactar Labs. We're specialists in augmented mixed reality. And right now our focus is on transforming the buying experience for new construction through a product we've called homeAR. So just if you'll allow me to stand pack that quickly, you know, when you think about it, well, Tech's really changed pretty much everything we buy in our lives, from the food we eat, and the places we stay, and even the cars that get us there. The experience of buying a new home really hasn't changed much since the 70s, or 80s. And this is in spite of the fact that people are spending hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of dollars every time. So that's a big problem, we think. And so that's what we're focused on, we're bringing emerging tech like AR to bear on what is a pretty tricky problem, but one that we think is really worth solving. So the good thing is I get to indulge, my inner geek can play with some cool tech, like smart glasses and drones and other cool gadgets. And yeah, so that's that's what the journey has led me to this point. It's simply a really exciting time.

Peter Szczerba - I I'm excited to dig into that a little bit afterwards. But you know, I'm sure there's a bit of a story in terms of how you ended up here with this startup, but I'm curious, you know, tell me a little bit about it, because this is a huge accomplishment, right, successfully, you know, pursuing such an endeavor and then getting off the ground and starting to get momentum, do you find it difficult talking about your accomplishments at all, does that come naturally to you, because I have to imagine that being at the head of a company, you have to do it with a little bit of confidence, right?

Richard Penny - You do. And I think as a New Zealander, we're actually not naturally very good at talking about our selves and our accomplishments. And that's probably what it is actually a genuine flaw that we have as a culture. And I think as a culture, we're trying to fix it, but it's pretty deeply ingrained. And so when I talk about my career path, I find it a lot easier to talk about the learnings. And in some cases, some of the humility, the humility that comes with those. But the positive inverse of that is, you know, what those learnings enable you to do. And that's really the context of how I like to talk about where I am. And that does ultimately lead to talking about achievements. But it's really talking about, you know, what's enabled us to get to that point, rather than than nothing that we've achieved. And again, it might be a Kiwi and maybe made worse as a as a Richard Penney thing. But it's, it's probably something that a lot of people listening to this podcast can probably relate to.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, absolutely. And I like this idea of, you know, focusing on the learnings and the outcomes, right, and that'll tell the story itself, it'll talk about the impact, it'll, you know, ultimately, if the outcomes were positive, then it's going to talk about the accomplishments in a positive way. So I think that makes absolute sense. And, you know, I'm curious though circling back, you're, you're here, you're at the head of a company, you're doing really exciting things and kind of digitally transforming the home buying experience. But you kind of mentioned, there was a journey that led up to this point, was it a linear one? Did it have twists and turns? Tell me a little bit about how we got here?

Richard Penny - Yeah, it certainly wouldn't go linear. And I wouldn't call it standard. And I, you know, I'd love to be that startup founder that standing on the stage talking about this vision I saw in the clouds, or, you know, how I was hyper hyper focus from from a young age, but it's really not been like that. So, you know, it hasn't been how I've navigated the path of the corporate world to achieve success. It's really a story of a person who was, you know, driven as to try as hard as I could really to apply myself as best I could to what I was doing at the time without necessarily knowing what was coming next, but with some belief, and probably a little bit of hope that that would create opportunities for the next stage. So that's kind of been the theme really, it's been about sort of working through periods of self doubt, which again, I think, you know, most of us most of us experience. So working through those and minimizing those while taking toll those, those periods that come along, you know, where is suddenly holy Heck, I'm really good at this. And you're really leaning into those and finding a seam where, you know, it's about, you know, for me, really, when I look back, it's really been about finding a seam where opportunity and ability and interest happened to align and then following that as hard as I could to the next point, so that's really been the way we've, you know, the journey is gone. And it's been it's been exciting. I mean, it's it's not you know, not a story of Starting as an astronauts and leading the way, you know, to being a spy or anything like that it's taken me from some fairly, you know, fairly standard sort of jobs in the corporate world where I learned a lot about the good and the bad of business. And looking back, I was probably that annoying 20 something telling everybody with gray hair that the business needed to change, or it was going to die. And, you know, that's where I started to work out that starting things and challenging the status quo was what I most enjoyed. And that's where I had some strings, but didn't necessarily always endear me to the people that I work with. So that was sort of that corporate piece. And then I let things took me on a progression through to taking the skills that I'd learned there and going into consulting role, primarily our marketing strategy, and I roamed around New Zealand, quoting Michael Porter and drawing BCG matrices. And when I look back, it makes me cringe a little bit, not because it wasn't right. But because I was doing as a 20, something year old without any real depth of understanding of what those business owners were really dealing with in reality, and in some cases, it was just simply trying to survive and make payroll and live another day. And here's some, some guy waving his arms around and telling them all about the importance of differentiation and picking your competitive strategy and its interests interests, a little cringy there. But anyway, again, all with good intentions. And then that led me to founding a small, small agency with one of my clients, a marketing agency, and building that up, really was a fun time and allowed me to employ some great people and some other people did some really cool stuff. Then the somewhat awful realization that I hadn't followed a lot of my own consulting advice, and, and therefore hadn't really built a business that was particularly valuable or sustainable. And the net result of that, combined with some customers decided to do different things that mean that they ultimately failed. And that was painful and humiliating and lots of learnings there, and the feeling of letting people down and finding myself in the, at the age of sort of, I think, in my mid 40s, really having to pick myself up and, and work out what I was going to do next, I'm grateful that I think the combination of the experiences that I've had along the way, put me in a position to find the clarity, and recognize that the combination of the experiences that I'd had, and the battle scars and the skills actually put me in a really good spot to create my own business, which ultimately is what I've always wanted to do. So the result of that really, seemingly very negative experience. And it was a very painful experience, for me and for others. But it meant that I actually found myself in the perfect position to do something that I've always wanted to do. But it never really been the right time, or there was a good an excuse, or I was just gonna get that promotion or whatever. So that's what led me to go right, now's the time to start up. And that's really what let me let me see where I am right now,

Peter Szczerba - I find that so interesting, the idea that you hadn't really followed your own advice, potentially, and that you didn't have a business that was positioned in it, you know, distinct and unique way in the market or that was really differentiated in the value added, you started to see your clients go different ways and failure ensued. But I'm curious, did it happen fast? Was it sudden? Or was there a time, that kind of lapse in it? It was like a slow burn? What did how did that failure kind of come around? And then while it was happening, I'm very curious, did your mind immediately start to see the opportunity that, you know, this is sort of happening, and I'm going to get the opportunity to do this, this startup that I've been wanting to do for quite some time, and it's just out of necessity, now I need to fit it to something else, now's better time than ever. Yeah.

Richard Penny - So regarding that, you know, the failure. I think, you know, looking back at the inability to create something really unique, was something that obviously happened over a period of time, and you know, that the creative agency spaces is very challenging, it's very competitive. And we were trying really hard to build a point of difference around technology. And, and we're so we had a strategy there. But for a range of reasons we didn't really follow through on that. And that was, again, just through some of the pressures of running a business, you know, when you've got the opportunity to take work that is paid versus work that is really core to your mission. You know, when you're a small business and you've got staff and payroll in, then you find yourself taking the work that is going to pay unless you're a very brave person or or you have some, some deep pockets dig into and so we did what is pretty natural for a lot of businesses and and follow their customers. And unfortunately, whilst that meant that we actually built a significant business and did some work for amazing companies, the relationships there are never permanent and and behind those relationships, there wasn't much that was different. So we saw that coming. And that was my entree into augmented and mixed reality. Some of the team and I were really pushing into that we're looking to change the shape of the business, but for a whole range of reasons. We tried hard, but we weren't able to do that within that business. But that allowed me to learn a lot and see the opportunities that we're coming. And that's really what I did find myself thinking about what's next, you know, I still had belief in potential of this technology still had real interest in that and, and still had the the thoughts about how I could make that into a business. But then the decision more came from, okay, I'm in my mid 40s, I have a mortgage of a family, and is this the right time to be doing this? Or should I go, just go and get a job. And I've got to say, I mean, I went back and forth on that a fair bit. But with the support of I got of the family, and particularly my wife, the decision was, now's the time. So it was great to be able to do that. And frankly, you couldn't do it without the support that I had. Because otherwise, you'd be forever thinking that you'd done something that was a little selfish and possibly putting your family's, you know, finances at risk. So that's, that's where we got to, and yeah, that the other thing that allowed me to lean into that was the fact that, you know, confidence in the experiences that I had, and the things that had shaped me to get to that point, which meant that I had confidence to not only come up with a business idea, but what it would take to actually make that idea and to an opportunity to convince others of that opportunity. Because ultimately, you know, we needed to get some investment. Yeah, and that means I could get people to help me, it means I could raise capital, it meant that I could take an idea, you know, an idea into a into a fledgling business. And then those skills at 25. Some people do, I didn't. But yeah, starting at a 45 does come with some other complexities, and certainly focuses the mind when you're thinking about what the alternatives are, if you want to make the business into a success.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, I find that super interesting. And I had a conversation with one of these podcasts with a gentleman by the name of Rishi Nayyar, and he is the founder of a startup here in Canada called pocket health and quite different circumstances within which it was started, he made a conscious decision to step away from a lucrative corporate role in his early mid 20s. Understanding that he was able to take on that sort of risk and not make an income for a number of years. And, you know, his pursuit for success was driven by, you know, desire to make an impact in the space that his startup kind of focused. But that's fundamentally very different from your situation where you had real urgency once you made the decision to move forward with this startup that is, you know, situated right at the center of a passion that you have around augmented reality and mixed reality and solving for a real need in an industry that, as you mentioned, has been stagnating for so so long, do you feel that that urgency is a was an accelerator to the success and the progress because you knew that, you know, if you're going to go all in on this, it has to succeed? Right? There's no other option but for it succeed? And do you find that that was an accelerant?

Richard Penny - But I do I there's no question that the sort of the burn the boats mentality definitely focuses the mind. And it's what gets you up at 5am. And keeps you going when you'd rather go and have a beer. But the same, I guess, By the same token, the other the benefit of being where I am and experience I've got that I do have the confidence that, you know, if this didn't work out, then you know, you're gonna get a job. And that's not the worst thing that happened, right? So if you think about like, what what's the worst that can happen going and getting a job, that's, you can live with that. So I think that the desire to succeed probably overrides the fear of failure. Because the fear of failure, the failure is mostly for your own expectations. And then it's unlikely to be complete financial ruin. So yeah, that's, that's the key story going and every every milestone, you hit a great feeling of, you know, of achievement. And this comes back to that thing at the start, where it's not often sort of stop and reflect on achievement. But just, you know, when you when you do every milestone just in when it's a startup, it's surviving that next month, getting that first customer getting that first overseas customer raising that first capital when these these milestones, and they just build the confidence. And yeah, I think that that's, that's what keeps you going really and so it's been an exciting time I really enjoyed and, you know, I do often think, geez, I wish I was doing this in my 20s. But the reality was, I didn't have the skills I needed in my 20s and the circumstances that come together to allow me to do it now.

Peter Szczerba - Yeah, absolutely. And I want to touch a little bit on kind of the the overarching journey that you've been on, because you've had the corporate roles. You've then gone on and started, you know, a different company prior to this, but that was more focused in that kind of agency or consulting space. So is it leaned more heavily to the kind of traditional corporate environment? And now you're essentially running a tech startup? Right. And so those are fundamentally very different professional growth experiences, right? First, it's what how do I secure my next promotion? How do I ensure that I grow and continue to progress my career then it's I'm starting a consulting company and You know, I need to grow the business one, but then hire good people and create a culture for them to grow. And now you're in, you know, wildly different potential growth culture. And I'm curious to hear, you know, how has your mindset shifted about growth from one kind of stage of your journey to the next and then maybe describe, you know, what is it culminated in in terms of what it's like now, and with the team that you're building with homeAR.

Richard Penny - it's not something I should have thought too much about. But now that you ask, I mean, I guess, you know, when you start, right at the start of a startup, you know, where you come out of, I guess, let's say more traditional corporate roles, and, and you've had the, you know, hopefully had the luxury of getting to a point where you're maybe in a strategical leadership role. And so therefore, your job is quite different to what or you know, to what it was earlier in your career, and then all of a sudden, you start your own business, and you get to do the strategy stuff, but then you also get to do everything else. And for a while, that's great, because you're like, Okay, I've got these skills, and I really know what I want. And I really want to, you know, control lesson and, and create the business that I want. And that's exciting. And then you get to a point where you go, geez, I wish someone else to help me make some of these decisions, or what, you know, geez, I wish there was someone else to write that piece of copy, or whatever it is, and so, so you get to that next stage. And so then, so having gone from, you know, leadership role, and perhaps other people will do more of the executional stuff to doing everything, and then going on that path again, really, and I think that's kind of, you know, that's on the, the path that I'm on right now, we've gone from myself and my, my developer, and then you hire the next person, and then then all sudden, you start to think, again, all the stuff that you thought about years ago, but hadn't thought about for some time around. Well, how do I create a great role for this person? How do I, how do I be a leader again, rather than a doer? And, and how do I create a career path for that person, and then then you get to the next stage, if you if you're fortunate enough, you go from being answer or answerable only to yourself, and in my case, my wife, to having shareholders and having a board and having a boss again, effectively? And then thinking about all What does stakeholder management look like? And what does that look like in this context versus what it was like in you know, in my previous life, and so, I haven't really thought too much about that. But you sort of almost feel like you're reset and start again, and I guess the with the benefit of hindsight, and some previous experience, but it's certainly slightly different in your eyes. Yeah,

Peter Szczerba - Absolutely. And it's interesting to hear you describe it, because you talk about it, like the initial experience of going through the growth, you know, from kind of a doer into a leader and a strategic leader, and then having a reset in a totally different context. But now progressing through that same kind of story arc, but at a very accelerated rate, right, given the the nature of kind of the tech startup space and how your business is growing. So I find that particularly interesting to hit that reset, and do it again, but really quickly, is is really cool. And I never really thought about it that way. And I'm glad that you've kind of articulated like that. And you touched on something, I find it really interesting, the idea that, you know, you initially start up, homeAR, and you know, you're trying to secure that first client or now that boss, you're the leader, kind of at the helm of the company, and then you secure kind of investors, and you have a board and now suddenly have a boss again, but it's fundamentally different. Talk a little bit more about that, how does the mindset shift, right? Like, it's still your baby, and you're trying to grow this and shape it and put out this, this perfect product? But now you once again, have, you know, people that you're answering to, and I know that, you know, for someone who would embark on something like this, you're probably your hardest critic, but then, you know, do you find that difficult to manage with the board as well,

Richard Penny - I do and the harshest critic pieces, absolutely correct. And I do find myself going to those board meetings, you know, with a fair amount of nervous energy that's built up, and it's a quite a different environment to presenting to your management team. And, you know, when I've had, I've worked for great management teams, and I've worked for other management teams, really, and in this case, here with a board who are fundamentally this, you know, this success is tied to your success, for the most part, they are, you know, it's a very supportive environment, and, and they're looking to find ways to help you as opposed to, you know, we all know that in some corporate environments, that's not always what you get when you bring your ideas or, or you're being evaluated by, by the, you know, stakeholders. So, so I find myself probably with some legacy sort of apprehension going into these decisions, thinking health, how's our progress going to be perceived? How is my leadership going to be perceived? And every time without fail, it is perceived in a positive way and the messages of support and how can we help as opposed to Why haven't you done this? Why haven't you done that? So it's quite a different thing. And I know that that also happens in corporate roles and great leadership teams build that same environment, but it's not always the case. So, you know, I, I find myself each each board meeting preparing myself with a fair amount of nervous energy and then coming out of it very energized and feeling very supportive, as supported and you know, have feeling like I got a great team behind me really,

Peter Szczerba - You know, it's funny that you say that though, because I, I'm a strong believer of the idea, if you are deeply passionate about something you care about something like, for example, in this case, the company and the kind of the product or that you founded, you're going to be nervous. And that's going to keep you sharp, and it's going to mean that you're going to prepare and over prepare, and it's likely gonna mean that you're going to perform or outperform where you thought you may have. And that's likely why, you know, at the end of it, you walk out of those board meetings, you know, having received a reaction that was probably significantly more positive than potentially you expected. But I think that's because of how much you care. And, and that nervousness, I think is is important. I think it has to be there because it keeps you sharp, and it makes sure that that you know, you're you're on your toes, and you're performing kind of like your peak. And I strongly believe in that. I'm curious, because I feel like maybe in you know, when you were running your previous company, versus now, if I had asked, I bet that your answer to this question may be a little bit different, you know, prior to starting homeAR versus now in this environment. But I like to ask the question around, you know, what sort of legacy Are you working to leave behind? And I'm curious, when you were leaving kind of a consulting company or agency, you know, was the legacy that you were hoping to leave behind fundamentally different than the one that you're opening lead by now with this startup? Or maybe do you even not think about that, really? Is it not something that you're conscious of?

Richard Penny - Yeah, I would say that. Previously, I didn't think a lot about my legacy. And again, you know, I wish I had thought more about that and haven't been more deliberate about what I wanted to achieve. Like, this is another way sort of thinking about the retrospective, in terms of you know, how I think about it now, and I do think about it a lot more, but it's through the lens of look back and feel like I've fulfilled potential, as opposed to what other people think. So it's really about what I think and how I've fulfilled what I believe my potential to be. And again, as a dad, and this is something I only thought about, obviously, the last few years as a father of young kids is a great role model to them, both in terms of what I achieved from a career point of view, but also how I did balance that as a as a father and a husband sort of thing. So I know, that's a bit cliche, but that's really far more important to me than I used to think that accolades and recognition from, excuse me from peers was was a real motivator. But I think as I get older and a bit more philosophical, I really think it's more about how I perceive, you know, how I've performed against my potential and what I've been able to demonstrate as a as a role model to my kids.

Peter Szczerba – That was a really beautiful sentiment, and it's one that resonates particularly with me, I think we chatted prior to start recording, I also have two little ones. And I really like the way that you've articulated that and this idea and sentiment of of fulfilling your potential and making sure you're satisfied with the things that you've achieved, as opposed to, you know, looking for accolades and kind of accreditation from others is a really important one. And I'm sure that it's one that makes setting goals that much more validating. So I'm I'm glad that you articulated it that way. Richard, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and having this conversation. It's been a really great one. I look forward to reconnecting again in the future and seeing where homeAR is in a little bit of time. Thank you.

Richard Penny - Thanks, Ben. It's been really interesting. It's been an interesting retrospective that I've done often day so I've enjoyed it. Thanks a lot.