OYP Episode 28: Arjun Asokakumar

Arjun Asokakumar, Director of Data Science - People Analytics at Royal Bank of Canada, walks us through the keys to a successful career pivot, and highlights the importance of knowing your narrative and having substance behind your self advocacy.

Interview

 Adrienne Graham - Welcome back to the Own Your Potential Podcast where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe about how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too. I'm Adrienne Graham.

Peter Szczerba - I'm Peter Szczerba.

Adrienne Graham - And today we're talking to Arjun Asosakumar, Director of People Analytics at Royal Bank of Canada. Arjun, welcome. Tell us a little bit about your career journey so far?

Arjun Asokakumar - Sure. Thanks, Adrian, thanks for having me. My career journey has been, I would say interesting, for lack of a better word. So if I fast forward or sorry, rewind, rather, to 2008, when I fully finished school, spring of 2008, I graduated from Queens with Queens University, here in Canada, with a degree in engineering, electrical engineering, and economics and so highly over educated person, but with not much of a clue of what he wanted to do, just knew that I didn't want to be an engineer. So I somehow fell into technical recruiting recruiting engineers, which led to recruiting for digital and analytics folks. And that led me to SapientNitro at the time, was what the company was called. From there, I put, I took on a few different roles moving off from recruiting into the staffing and capacity roles, which is really where I started to, you know, use data to make people decisions. And at the same time, the whole area of data and analytics within the HR and people's space is really starting to take off with, you know, Google, kind of creating the first people analytics team ever known. And that inspired me to really, you know, get back to my roots of, you know, analytical thinking and problem solving. And so I decided to take that seriously and take a leap and actually go back to school to pursue master's in analytics, also at Queen's University. The great thing about that was it was a program that I could do, while I was working and Sapient was, was kind and flexible enough to allow me to do that. And so after a grueling 10 months of very little sleep, and probably 20 pounds of weight gained, I graduated, and then decided to pursue an opportunity at a bank here in Canada, to start kind of a people analytics practice. And it's now been almost four years, and now I'm at another bank, and leading a team of data scientists within the people analytics field. So that's, that's me in a nutshell.

Peter Szczerba - So Arjun, I'd love to dig into kind of the thinking and the emotions that you went through, as you were kind of coming to terms with the fact that you wanted to go back to your roots, as you were kind of discovering the opportunities for data driven, kind of people optimization within the organization. So I guess, what role did the bravery play in that? What role did kind of you exploring and researching opportunities that would come out of going back and upskilling? Just walk us through that decision process a little bit more?

Arjun Asokakumar - Sure. Yes, Peter? Absolutely. Definitely a lot of soul searching before I made the decision. I think one of the big things for me was as I was internalizing, you know, my career up to that point. You know, I started to feel like, the thing that I brought most to the table and where my career was taking me was that, you know, I was generally good at my job, and I enjoyed my job, but it was around, really, you know, the knowledge of the company itself. And so when I internalize that I realized, you know, what are the transferable skills I can bring to the table? And what kind of skills do I need to keep up with, you know, where markets and where, you know, work is going in general? And so I think that led to a bit of a crisis for me to really dig deep and understand, you know, what are the things I really want to do? And one of the skills I want to develop, and, you know, doing a ton of research, keeping an open mind listening for inspiration, not necessarily looking for inspiration, but listening for an inspiration. And then, you know, again, going back to the drawing board and figuring out, how do I take what I have and how do I sort of, you know, evolve into this next layer as opposed to just completely stop and then starting to start again. So really having have evolved My career without really losing momentum. So, you know, I think a lot of that was, you know, setting an intention to what I wanted to pursue in school and not just jumping into school. And doing this program was sort of it was a general enough program that you could take what you want out of it. So setting that intention was very important. And then having been out of school for 10 years, obviously, you know, finding the courage and the confidence to get back into the academic area was a big one. But I had a few months to kind of get over that hump. And again, during that time, not wasting the time, but preparing myself through just, you know, breaking open my old textbooks and, and, you know, reading blogs and reading all these other, you know, resources that I had available. So, you know, setting intention, doing your research, and definitely preparing for the challenges ahead of you, I think really helped me take the next step.

Adrienne Graham - Wow, very interesting journey so far, Arjun. Now, throughout all of this decision making for yourself, you must have had some help. Who helped to advocate for you throughout your journey?

Arjun Asokakumar - Well, I think, you know, for me, advocacy is, there's a few different layers or types of advocacy, there's obviously the sort of advocacy from a support perspective. And so, you know, I would bounce my ideas off some of my peers and colleagues and people who knew me well, and friends and, you know, had had their support, and just to make sure that I was testing the waters, and, you know, checking my gut against these things. You know, advocacy from a, from a career standpoint, from a development standpoint, obviously, my boss at the time was very supportive of me, growing my skill sets in general. So talking to him early, I found was also helpful to get that support to get that sort of, you know, reinforcement, but this was, this was okay to do. And then, you know, if you ask for general help, not necessarily directly from a self advocacy, but I actually just started following industry leaders who had the career I kind of wanted to emulate. So to really just researching not just their work, and what were they're putting out there, but how they got there was also helpful to me, just, you know, from a from obviously, from afar, I'm not a direct advocacy or direct support. But But I think that also helped,

Peter Szczerba - I find that really interesting origin. And, and, and just combining, you know, the support you had from an advocate standpoint, and mentorship standpoint. But then also, you know, with the way that you landed on eventually making the decision to pursue the additional education, and then look for an opportunity to combine the work you've been doing with these new skills you learned, I think a lot of people have that experience these days when they're looking to make a pivot or a change in a career. But I would argue that a challenge that most of them probably find after the fact that I'm sure, you know, something you have to deal with is then finding the rule to actually get to, you know, activate the new things you've learned, overlaid on top of your previous experiences, you know, but not necessarily without having any tangible or concrete experience doing exactly that. So how did you overcome that? How did you sell yourself, and you advocate for yourself while you were trying to find the perfect opportunity to bring all this together?

Arjun Asokakumar - Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that's probably the biggest, biggest challenge that I had as well. You know, all the good intentions are great, and all the preparation, but when the rubber hits the road, it's like, well, what do you got to show me? So I, first of all, I've been a huge advocate of, you know, don't just be a self advocate, but have something to back it up, right? I think a lot of people these days are really just focused on selling themselves and having the conversations and thinking they know what they want, and they can do, but not having any proof or any evidence of those things. So, a few things, I did a few things. So first of all, is kind of going back to what I said earlier about setting an intention. So using that intention, and making sure that every opportunity I had through through the education, the course or the program I was doing, not to waste any opportunity to learn and to actually dig in and do some hands on work. And so I didn't have a portfolio of projects to display or an experience to put on my resume. But I was able to sort of do my own projects, build my own portfolio on my own time, whether it was through school projects, or whether it was just through personal projects that I decided to just do and pursue that will actually hone my skills and I have something to show for it. And secondly, I think you know, at least in my field in the analytics and data science fields, you typically are asked to present Something in the interview. And I know that that's not always the case with other fields. But I had, you know, the luxury of having to show people having to prove what I can do and not just talk about it. And because I'd done all that preparation, because I've done all those personal projects and personal time into building those skills, I use every opportunity whenever there is a case study to just go for it. And, you know, I can tell you, I interviewed at probably three major companies, all three of them, I made it to the final rounds, just based on the on the merit of my work that I presented. Now, I only got the one job, which is the really the job that I wanted. So it worked out for me. But I think getting to the final rounds, when you're competing with other people who may have better resumes was a huge confidence boost for me to tell me that I probably know myself. And it's because I'd invested the time to actually learn it and take every opportunity to build up to the point where you can start to be a self advocate. And then after that is just sitting down and writing out the story and writing out your intention. And and what I'm going to call know your narrative, right? Like why are you there? What got you there? What do you want to do? And I sometimes think people don't do that enough. Know your narrative, when you get into these interviews, and whether they're formal interviews, or whether they're networking sessions is really developing a story and narrative for yourself. And then obviously having the goods to back it up.

Adrienne Graham - Okay, speaking about knowing yourself and knowing your narrative, how is your brand, your personal brand evolved over the course of your career? And in what ways has your brand maybe remained consistent?

Arjun Asokakumar  - I actually don't think my brands changed that much. I think, you know, I think the core of my myself and my brand has stayed the same. I think if you ask people over the years, I think my approach and outlook may have changed towards my career towards, you know, the importance of helping other people along in their careers. And, you know, maybe the priorities within your career change a little bit. But I actually think my brand has stayed consistent. And one of the biggest things that I've made sure, that stays consistent is that every experience or someone has with me, is a positive one from a from a work experience standpoint, that, you know, the level of competency, the level of partnership level of collaboration that they've received, has always been consistently good. And I think that's really helped me maintain my brand. Because advocacy is is great. And self advocacy is really important. But other people advocating for you passively or actively is equally important. Because you don't want to have to do all the work. So every experience counts, it's cumulative. And so you have to pay attention to how you work with others. And I think that's been the consistently strong part of my brand.

Peter Szczerba - Building off of that, Arjun in terms of the comments you made there about actively or, or passively advocating for others, right, or having people advocate for you, you're in a leadership position. Now, your career journey has taken that path. And I imagine that there are opportunities for you to advocate for people on your team for the people around you, your peers, what's your approach to that? What is your mantra around advocacy for for kind of the team achievements you're part of as well as the individual achievements of your teammates?

Arjun Asokakumar - Yeah, I think I think that is extremely important. And, you know, I mentioned a little bit around, you know, priorities in my career journey and career progression. And one of the things that has that has been now now is a priority as I progress in my career, is ensuring that people come up along with you, right. And so I think early on in your career, you are a little bit more about yourself, and you know, as expected, but as you develop your career, you kind of shift the focus from self and the individual, to the team and other people and helping them come up along you. So that that is a big theme for me. And something that I've you know, noticed is changed in my attitudes. So that has become very central to what I do. In the last two roles, specifically, I had multiple people that reported to me, and so I think, you know, my general story around around advocating for others is that any job I've left, I've left, making sure that the person who is my mentee or underneath me gets promoted into my role and that's now happened twice or promoted at least before I leave. So taking care of the people my own has been a huge part of part of what I'm proud of and part of the advocacy for others. In my new job, it was very interesting. I I changed jobs last March, a week before We all got sent home during the pandemic. This was again, a step up for me it was brand new team, it was, you know, a big job. One of the things that I did, you know, is, is again through the phone, because we had no other choice is really just get to know people right like, don't come in with a strong agenda like a bull in china shop, and respect the fact that they were team members had been there for years before me. And so really take the time to understand Get to know your team, and your people individually, and how they work as a team, but more importantly, individually, and then figure out ways that you can help them advocate for themselves and or advocate for them in other forums. Because your job as a leader is to stand stand up for your team. So I've always maintained that, you know, I have sort of a protective mentality towards my team, not in the sense of coddling them, or doing work for them. But in terms of defending them. And in terms of standing up for them in forums where they may not be present, or aware, I don't feel like they're standing up for themselves. So you know, that has always been part of my approach is to have a bit of a, you know, a sort of a caring and taking responsibility for your team upfront, regardless of how many years you've been with them. And then really investing the time to get to know them to figure out how they can do it for themselves because everybody's different. And you know, I didn't use the pandemic or working remotely as an excuse, that's part of my job, I have to do it regardless if I'm in front of them, or on the phone. Right. So I think everyone sort of has to take that responsibility if you're in a leadership role.

Peter Szczerba - I love that. And I feel like there's a sentiment that's kind of jumped up or bubbled to the surface across a couple of the stories you've told today. And that's this idea of of taking control and actively contributing to the direction that your career is going. And then you mentioned specifically about setting up the opportunity for the people that have rolled into you, to step into your shoes and take over your role as you pursue other opportunities and actively decide to pivot or to ascend. And I guess the question is though, you know, that's not an inherent behavior for a lot of people to take active control of, of their career. And if it isn't, for example, to the teammates that you're advocating for and that you're protecting and supporting, as you mentioned, what's your approach to building that sort of behavior and mindset into folks? Because that's not always an easy thing to to do?

Arjun Asokakumar - Yeah. And that is, and that is about respecting differences in people and figuring out a way to do it inclusively, right, like, there's a lot of talk right now about inclusivity. And obviously, for me, it goes well beyond your demographics, and it goes more to your behaviors and your personalities as well. And, and maybe I'm just a little bit more in tune with people's emotions, and even more emotionally intelligent, but I think it is, it is the leaders job to understand how their people tick, and what will make people grow in the ways that they want to. So one of the things that I've consistently done is put put the onus on the person to tell me how they want to grow, I'm not going to tell you how to grow, everybody is different. My growth path is very different to someone else's growth path. And a lot of people take different routes to get to the top of the mountain, right, I think that's the metaphor people refer to. So so i think it's it's incumbent on the leader to know that person individually, and then figure out what works for them. There's no one growth mindset, there are probably infinite number of growth mindsets. And so and then depending on that you kind of set up plan to nudge them in the right direction, I think that is the best you can do. I think you can't sort of drag them up the path or, or zigzag whatever path they decide you can't drag them to it, you have to sort of nudge them along. But also, you know, if you do see an opportunity, and then voluntell them to do it. So say there's an opportunity. So, for example, I know a lot of people struggle with this, but you know, public speaking or presenting and in a large group of people, they're they're very good at, you know, dating and having a presence and a small team. But when it comes to a larger group, they kind of freeze or they kind of, you know, run back into their shell. And so, you know, you know, I've selected opportunities for people. And in several of my jobs where I say you're going to do this, you're going to go and present. And that's sort of a voluntell sort of directive, but it's because they identify that as something that they wanted to do and how they want it to grow. So that's just one example is let the person take control. In the sense that let the person at least tell you what they want in their own way and what they're comfortable with. And then you sort of figure out what buttons to push and where to promote them along. But you can't pull them. It's more of a prod than a pull

Adrienne Graham - Arjun, you've given our listeners some food for thought and insights around self advocacy, leadership and setting intentions by sharing your journey with us today. Thank you for spending time with us and sharing your stories with our listeners. We really appreciate your time.

Arjun Asokakumar - My pleasure. Thank you for having me.