OYP Episode 13: AJ Dalal and Justin Plumridge

AJ and Justin, North American Data Strategy and Data Science & Analytics leads at Publicis Sapient, talk about how they’ve developed a culture of growth within their teams and the importance of advocacy for others.

Interview

Ashley Snow - Welcome to the Own Your Potential Podcast, where you'll hear stories from leaders across the globe, about how they've taken control of their career growth and lessons on how you can too. I'm Ashley Snow, and this is episode 13 with AJ Dalal and Justin Plumridge. To start, can you both introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about your professional background?

AJ Dalal - Sure. So first, my name is AJ Dalal, my professional background after university specializing in economics and financial services. I started as an entrepreneur with a company called Think Media were very similar to Google sapient. Just one 1,000th of the size focused on web development, media, CRM, creative and technology. And think about the ironic thing being 45 years old is that Sapient was my first job outside of being an entrepreneur.

Justin Plumridge - Justin Plumridge, so I have been working, I guess, in all things data for about 18 or 19 years. And honestly, I, I really got into analytics almost by accident, I think, started in year 2000, when I was working in the UK, in London. And at that point, there wasn't really a career in analytics as such, there were no degrees that you could study for, you know, analytics, done a bunch of statistics papers, but it was really studying trees and plants. And I started working in marketing and getting into, I guess, the marketing databases, and then kind of figured out there was actually, yeah, there was a there was a niche in data. And I guess, something progressing ever since. But at that point, it really wasn't well defined.

Peter Szczerba - The two of you call lead North American analytics and data with AJ, you focusing on data strategy. And Justin, you focusing on data science and analytics. How have you guys formed that partnership? And how's it grown over the years?

AJ Dalal - That's a great question, Peter. So I've been working closely with Justin for the past eight years. And underpinning Our relationship is really being built off of two key traits of trust and respect. When we approach any type of client challenge, or team situation, or strategic planning, we both put our best approaches forward. And I know any type of feedback or guidance or pushback or challenges I received from Justin comes from a very strong and positive intention to do what's right for the team, the organization, our clients and our people. And knowing that is at the root that drives our trust and respect has yielded some very strong internal results within the organization within our data practice that has yielded significant growth, very low attrition, and quite high success rate for our folks in terms of their internal growth.

Justin Plumridge - Yeah, to add to that, I think, I think we kind of play to our strengths. So the trainer journey, we're almost T shaped. So you know, edges, very good look at the holistic needs of a client from a data strategy perspective. And he sells that incredibly well. So you know, I can sell as well. But I think AJ is probably a much better salesperson from a data perspective and road-mapping for a client than I am. And so, you know, the logical next step is for me to follow up with delivery. And so, you know, everything we do involves some some element of strategy. But I think the fact that we've built a data strategy pillar in the last 12 months, the AJ is leading makes a ton of sense, to be able to kind of go in at a bigger scale for clients.

Ashley Snow - So one thing we hear a lot about lately is how important it is to not only have excellence in your craft, but also to make sure that you have a strong presence and that you're always building this personal brand. So normally, we would ask each of you to try to describe your personal brand in three words, but understanding the relationship the two of you have built and how closely you work together. We're going to switch it up a little. So AJ, in three words, how would you describe Justin's personal brand?

AJ Dalal - Oh, this is gonna be fun. Justin, personal brand in three words. He's a thought leader. He's transparent. And he's team focused.

Ashley Snow - So just in your turn, in three words, how would you describe AJ’s personal brand?

Justin Plumridge - The first one and the biggest one is disruptive. AJ is not shy about kind of giving his thoughts and shaking up what clients think they want but and him telling what they really need. Second one, I think is trust. So he builds a huge amount of trust with clients and you know, that that shows in many ways where a lot of clients don't want to kind of release them out of engagements. And then the final one, I think, is growth in terms of his focus on organizational growth as well from a business perspective.

Ashley Snow - So Peter, having known Justin and AJ for a handful of years, can you confirm or deny the truth of those statements?

Peter Szczerba - I can wholeheartedly confirm both. And I would almost describe their relationship as somewhat of a bromance. And you can kind of tell that from the intimacy of the answers they gave just now, but I can completely confirm. So Justin and AJ, you guys work so closely together. There's this trusting relationship, and you're building and leading this practice. But how do you guys push each other to grow? What is exactly in your dynamic that lets you guys make each other better?

Justin Plumridge - I think I think the big part is the fact that we know each other really well, that we're not shy about kind of calling each other out. Right? When, whether it be around team or around client projects. We will have pretty open and frank conversations. And yeah, honestly, we'll have plenty of arguments as well, right? And nothing ever sticks. It's never personal, but we're able to kind of hash stuff out and get to the, to the bottom of things very easily. And that process, I think that works well for for both of us.

AJ Dalal - Yeah, I would agree. I think the brutal honesty, between Justin and myself is evident, probably seen and heard by other teams and other folks on the data team as well. But again, it's deeply rooted in trust and respect. And I know that when I'm being challenged, it's Justin from a different view, seeing something that I'm not. So I pause, and I'll listen. And I know I get to say my part.

Peter Szczerba - But with that being said, though, and with all of those words ringing true as well, we'd love to hear a little bit about AJ, Justin is with the successful team and the successful practices you guys have cultivated and built, underpinning that is a really strong culture of growth, and one that empowers individuals, one that I've grown within myself for the last seven years, we'd love to know a little bit about what were the things that influenced how you built that culture of growth within the data capability? And why exactly did you choose to cultivate a growth mindset that empower the individual as much as you did? Why is it important to you as leaders?

Justin Plumridge - Sure I can, I can start I think that I mean, I've worked 50%, I guess, client side and 50% on the consulting side. And I think the one thing that client side always does better is invest in the growth of their people, purely because they have the resources, and I guess the time to do it. So I've always bought that mindset back to the consulting side. Because, you know, a lot of consultancies, you see, people just kind of left out to dry in a way and you know, it's kind of choose your own adventure. And there's a little bit of nurturing, and, and hand holding, but there's not a lot. So I've always tried to bring that kind of client side component to investing in people and making sure that they know where their career trajectory is going. That said, you know, people need to also own their own destiny as well and invest in it. So you know, we're only going to invest in people that want to invest in themselves.

AJ Dalal - Some great points there, Justin. So my tale of kind of my journey into sabian, obviously, would lead through a start up and I think through if I can summarize my startup, it was an incredible growth opportunity for me to learn a lot of things across all aspects of delivery. In all skill sets. I think that the two things that really jumped out that I tried to bring into Sapient and was the true meaning of stress and running a startup I what I learned about stress was, it wasn't about hitting a timeline, or the quality of work being done by an individual. To me stress was figuring out how I was getting a very specific amount of money in from accounts receivable to hit my payroll, that was do in a few hours, so I didn't impact the livelihoods of people. So I take that, while it sounds challenging, I take that perspective into into the life of Publicis Sapient. And I try to embed that with the team in terms of embracing failure and knowing it's okay to fail. It's okay to raise up your hand and say you need help we're not looking for you to be the experts in everything but just be open and transparent and understand that together through trust and respect which I think is the root of Justin and I relationship elevates the water within the organization. I think to on the flip side, the some of the challenges of running your own company when I had a bunch of partners was having some of the partners dictate my success, which I didn't enjoy, where they try to push their agenda on to me in terms of where we should shift in the organization. And a lot of times, when we have a chat with our folks in the organization on our team, it really is around empowering the individual making sure that they own and write down on paper, what success is for them, and how are they going to know that they achieved it, or they're going to achieve it. Because if they're not truly putting pen to paper, then they're letting their future success be dictated by Justin and myself, which we can do, but we don't know you better than you know, yourself. So our job is to help you nourish that growth, and get you in those right opportunities. I think that's something that I know is one of the biggest strengths that Justin and I are really aligned on and what we try to empower within the team.

Ashley Snow - AJ and Justin, in the year and a half or so I've known Peter, and in the handful of interactions I've had with other members of your team, I've heard time and time again about what incredible leaders you are, and how you really prioritize the people within the data organization. And I think while all successful leaders must have some degree of focus on their people, some simply do it better. And it shows when their teammates speak about them. Are there any lessons that you can share for other capability or vertical leaders who may want to model this people growth and people centric organization that you've created?

Justin Plumridge - Well, I think part of it is being involved in every single person that joins your team, right? Like when you see a lot of really fast organic growth and teams and the leaders are not involved and kind of being part of vetting those people, even if it's just meeting them for 15 minutes before you kind of sign the deal, right to bring them on board, then you know, you're not a part of shaping your team. There's a big part of putting trust in your leaders and who they're hiring. But there's also a part of just being part of that experience and making sure that you speak to everyone before they join the team, because ultimately, otherwise it kind of gets out of your grasp, right. And there's a whole bunch of people joining your team that you don't know, and you don't know what their skill set is. I think that's I think that's important.

AJ Dalal - Yeah, agreed. And one big thing I would add, that doesn't repeat, anything that Justin has already shared, or things I've already shared in the past is if you think of a strong team in terms of their growth as a chain link, and each chain link is represented by the individual's responsibility to manage up and manage down. And if we can get everyone on our team to be thinking about that unselfishly, while you think of your personal growth, and your writing everything on paper, look to your left and look to your right, or look up and look down and say to yourself, for example, how can Peter make my job easier in terms of what I'm trying to do? And and I got to reciprocate that and say to myself, What can I do for Peter to make his job easier? Is there any type of friction that I can use my relationships to help him on? Is there something that Peter sees on my plate that he could probably do a lot faster than I could possibly do? And I think if we think about that, of owning your growth, but also, and I've said it in the organization managing up and managing down, you will be creating a really strong, tight knit team that really, has really impressed me and impacted me professionally and personally.

Justin Plumridge - Yep, totally agree.

Peter Szczerba - So we're talking about really big, macro organizational strategies towards this type of growth and this type of culture cultivation, but I want to bring it down to something a little bit more granular, maybe a little bit more personal, where you guys have also excelled, at least in my experiences with you. And I started here as a junior associate, fresh out of school, and some of my first interactions working with you, individually, Justin, I'll tell a quick story about you. And then what about AJ, I'd love to hear where these approaches come from. Justin, in my third or fourth week, here, I was given the opportunity by you to speak in front of a major telecom client at the time and present a piece of work I'd been working on and it luckily went well. But we were not even two to three steps out of the room. And you were immediately offering praise and positive reinforcement on how well it had gone. And then the moment we got back into the office, back at the Sapient office, you again we're we're out loud saying to the team, how well it had gone in that I had done a good job, and that just cemented that I knew I was doing something right. And it was such a pivotal moment in those first couple of months. And then similarly, AJ, you know, within days of joining the organization, you were walking by my desk and quickly asking me and testing my knowledge about analytics terms or any other sort of term and requiring you to answer and a handful of words or less and immediately introduced it as a game and a form of challenge and introduced a playful nature to kind of the culture there, but all through the lens of pushing me to develop and grow. Right? And where does that come from? Because that stuff is so effective?

Justin Plumridge - I'm from it for me, I think it's, it's how I've always been given feedback from my managers, right? I've been really lucky in my career, I don't think I've bar one maybe I've every single person I've ever reported into is somebody that I had a lot of respect for. And they always gave very open feedback. And the thing about feedback is it's effortless. Right? It takes two minutes. And it's the thing that sometimes gets forgotten. But it's, it's something that I think people really appreciate. And whether it's good or bad, right and constructive. Everybody needs it to grow, whether it's whether it's challenging conversations, or just to say, hey, you did an awesome job. It's something that just should never not happen. So that's, I guess I got it from the people that have managed me. And I've continued that.

AJ Dalal - Yeah, so I it's a it's a true these questions are quite interesting, because they begin to touch kind of who you are, and what kind of a makeup who you are. My immediate answer came to my parents, and I just, I tried to push that answer away and try to put it related to some type of job or interaction or education I had. But I just go back to thinking of moments I had with my parents growing up, coming in with, say, for example, a math test, I'd come in with a 90% on a math test, and I'd sit down and my dad would sit down and look at me and just say to me, like, so you got 90, that's great that you know, where you lost your 10%? And I'd be like, yes. And then my mom would step in, like, okay, let's practice on that 10% to make sure that next time, you get that that extra 10%, or an English assignment or an essay, and my mom would kind of challenge me on the way that I was writing it saying, why do you have all these filler words or get to the point or show people with confidence that you know your answer by using fewer words, and getting rid of like filler words. And I know that it's a kind of a fire that was driven by both parents kind of being kind of first generation in this world where and I know, Peter, and I don't know you well enough Ashley and your background or I know, Justin, you're kind of the first generation into Canada kind of actually your, well we're second year first, truthfully. But knowing that our parents wanted so much more from us, and pushing us to be so much more. And I think that's what pushes me with my team is to spend those key moments I think those those moments of, Hey, you got the right answer. But how do you get how do you share that answer in 10 seconds, because maybe you only have 10 seconds to impress the client? I know you got there in a minute. But can you get there in 10 seconds? Can you get there with fewer words, and that just instills confidence within our team and within individuals within the data practice.

Ashley Snow - So what is something that you are particularly proud of that you don't often get a chance to talk about? And Justin, what is something AJ has done that you are proud of?

Justin Plumridge - AJ is pretty fearless about being disruptive, right? And I very much enjoy listening to and watching it happen. He loves to shake things up with clients, you know, clients give us a brief with an RFP or an RFI, or whatever the brief is for a project. And he never just reads it, and says, Okay, we'll deliver what you asked for, right? He always has a critical eye on it and looks at well, what do they really need, and completely rethinks it. And so many times he will go back and say, Well, this is interesting, but this is what you really need. This is what we're going to deliver for you. And we sell it in that way. And they're extremely appreciative of that. And I think with so many consultants, you just see people just digesting whatever the brief is, and then saying, Alright, we're going to stuff a team, and let's deliver what they asked for. And that's absolutely the wrong way to do it. It's like we should always be thinking critically about what they really need and what's better for them as a business. Which is why you know, AJ does so well from the strategy side, because he's, he thinks from that component. So I give him kudos for that.

AJ Dalal - I think, and I feel like I'm going down the soft side during this podcast, which I will have to hit stop at the end of the podcast, is one of the things that I'm most impressed about Justin is and you don't typically see it. I don't think many people see it. But how genuinely and truthfully soft he is inside, about how much he cares about the company, the client, himself but most importantly, the team. He continues to remind me and help strengthen I would say one of my weaknesses which is around spending time with the team outside of work. Remembering certain things, and he goes just above and beyond to the point where I will push him push back on him saying, don't do that don't do this. And he is incredibly selfless, to make sure that he removes whatever blocks people have within, within the company or whether it's personally, and he doesn't share it with anyone. So he doesn't go back to the organization and ask for certain things or request certain things. He'll just take care of it himself. And it blows my mind. How he continuously does that, and does it truthfully, without any expectation of anything in return.

Peter Szczerba - I think what's the most awesome thing about what we just listened to is just how a handful of questions open the doors to that sort of praise and that sort of celebration of someone else's behavior or mindset towards this space and these achievements. And I think it's really the perfect way for us to put a bow on on this conversation about those exact things and how just putting a little bit of effort towards advocating for others, but then also, you know, being a good advocate for yourself and your team and having the sort of mindset can really be powerful and changing the culture within a team or an organization and Justin, AJ, this conversation was honestly a privilege and we really thank you guys for sitting down and talking with us.

Ashley Snow - Thank you so much.

Justin Plumridge - Thanks, guys. Appreciate the opportunity.

AJ Dalal - Agreed thank you.